55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Thu 9 Jul, 2009 06:31 pm
@JTT,
Yeah, how do we know he's even an American citizen~
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Thu 9 Jul, 2009 06:31 pm
@parados,
That was pretty much my point, Parados.

Quote:
This is simply a red herring developed by a group of exceedingly greedy Scrooges.


And one more point if I might and this doesn't apply solely to Ican and his constitutional prevarications. It also applies to the prevalent whine about the courts "legislating". That principle was set down in Marbury vs Madison, in, what was it, 1802, 1803?

Correct me if I'm wrong, it's been years, but I can't say as I recall many writings vociferously opposing that very principle. And weren't a good number of those same founders still around long after that time. That would have given them ample opportunity to denounce such a development and time to seek to have it abolished.

ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Jul, 2009 06:31 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:
And where does the constitution use the word "dollar"?

The Constitution does use the word income in Amendment XVI. That's close enough to dollars of income.

Before the 16th Amendment, they taxed population--i.e., headcount-- uniformly throughout the United States.

Since nothing in the 16th Amendment changed the meaning of uniform, there is zero justification to support the notion that while taxes had to be uniform when taxing headcount before the 16th Amendment, they didn't have to be uniform on dollars of income after the 16th Amendment.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Jul, 2009 06:35 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:
The courts have the power to decide what the law means. They did so. You are ignoring the constitution ican.
I'm disputing the courts having the power to redefine the meaning of words used in the Constitution. Courts do not have the legal power to redefine the meaning of words in the Constitution.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Jul, 2009 06:39 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:
The 16th amendment was passed when a graduated income tax was ALREADY declared constitutional by the courts.

False!

The income tax was declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court near the end of the 19th Century. That's why those favoring an income tax proposed the 16th Amendment so that if passed, they could tax incomes.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Jul, 2009 06:57 pm
@cicerone imposter,
How do we know that you, cicerone imposter, you, parados, or you, JTT, are American citizens. For that matter how do we know Obama is an American citizen?

Regardless, the federal courts have been guilty of illegally amending the Constitution.

Justice Clarence Thomas at the University of Kansas School of Law in 1996, wrote:
In my mind, impartiality is the very essence of judging and of being a judge. A judge does not look to his or her sex or racial, social, or religous background when deciding a case. It is exactly these factors that a judge must push to one side in order to render a fair, reasoned judgment on the meaning of the law. In order to be a judge one must attempt to exorcise himself or herself of the passion, thoughts, and emotions that fill any frail human being. He must become almost pure, in the way that fire purifies metal, before he can decide a case. Otherwise, he is not a judge, but a legislator.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Jul, 2009 07:07 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
And weren't a good number of those same founders still around long after that time. That would have given them ample opportunity to denounce such a development and time to seek to have it abolished.

All the founders were dead by the time Lincoln instituted and Johnson, his predecessor, subsequently ended the income tax. Late in the 19th century an effort to reinstute the income tax was made. However, then it was determined by the Supreme Court to be unconstitutional. Subsequently, in 1913 the 16th Amendment was adopted and the income tax was re-instituted in the same year.
maporsche
 
  2  
Reply Thu 9 Jul, 2009 07:39 pm
@Debra Law,
I wish that mailing mail cost at least 5 times more than it does now. It would force people to find more economical ways to communicate information. More email, less snail mail. More faxing, less mail. More scanning, less mail, etc.

The low cost of mailing a letter today is in large part responsible for billions of tons of landfill waste.
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Jul, 2009 08:32 pm
@Foxfyre,
wikipedia, as adapted by Foxfyre wrote:
Modern American Conservatism/Classical Liberalism
(adapted from Wiki)

Modern American Conservatism (MAC)/Classical liberalism (also known as traditional liberalism[1], laissez-faire liberalism[2], and market liberalism[3] or, outside the United States and Britain, sometimes simply liberalism is a doctrine stressing individual freedom, free markets, and limited government.

Your phrase "adapted from" is a true wrist-slapper: The original Wikipedia article on classical liberalism, uncredited by Foxfyre, does not contain the words "Modern American Conservatism" or anything of the kind. You took this article, "adapted" it by adding the words "Modern American Conservatism (MAC)/", and then cited it as authority that the two ideologies are the same.

Oh, wait a minute: I'm getting a sense of -- excuse my French -- déjà vu here. Have you pulled this shtick earlier? Tell me it isn't so!
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Jul, 2009 08:34 pm
@ican711nm,
That's funny ican. Let's post what it REALLY said without your silly additions
Quote:
Let it be recollected that the proportion of these taxes is not to be left to the discretion of the national legislature, but is to be determined by the numbers of each State, as described in the second section of the first article. An actual census or enumeration of the people must furnish the rule, a circumstance which effectually shuts the door to partiality or oppression. The abuse of this power of taxation seems to have been provided against with guarded circumspection. In addition to the precaution just mentioned, there is a provision that "all duties, imposts, and excises shall be UNIFORM throughout the United States.''
Nope, not a thing in that federalist paper about it being uniform per dollar earned.

Nothing in the second quote about being "uniform per dollar earned"



Nothing in Madison 45 about "uniform per dollar earned"


So.. You made up that the founders said anything close to what you claimed. Then you attempted to include YOUR words in a quote from the founders in order to change their meaning.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Jul, 2009 08:43 pm
@ican711nm,
But the 16th amendment says NOTHING about "uniform per dollar earned".

Quote:
Before the 16th Amendment, they taxed population--i.e., headcount-- uniformly throughout the United States.
ROFLMAO.. really? Which tax was that? The tariffs on imported goods? The whiskey tax? You don't get to make stuff up ican just because you don't understand what Madison and Hamilton said in the Fed papers. They did NOT say all taxes were based on the census under the constitution. Rather Hamilton is talking about "direct taxes" when he talks about the census. Income taxes are "indirect taxes" according to court rulings and the Census no longer applies if you read the 16th amendment.

Quote:
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

Your attempt to use the census as an argument that they must be equal is negated by the amendment itself.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Jul, 2009 08:43 pm
And we find this from Heritage.org:
Quote:
Russell Kirk and The Conservative Mind

It is a striking historical coincidence that both the People's Republic of China and the modern American conservative movement were born a little over 50 years ago, the PRC in 1949 with the coming to power of Mao Zedung and modern conservatism in 1953 with the publication of Russell Kirk's masterwork, The Conservative Mind.

Chairman Mao famously declared that political power grows out of the barrel of a gun. While that may be true for certain regimes in certain circumstances, such political power cannot be sustained permanently, for it requires ever larger barrels and ever more guns. Political power that depends exclusively for its survival upon force inevitably degenerates into military power and leads to an authoritarian and usually a totalitarian state. Chairman Mao's aphorism in fact denies the reality that lasting political power grows not out of a gun, but out of an idea.

The central idea of The Conservative Mind, upon which American conservatism is essentially based, is ordered liberty. It is a blending of the sometimes contending requirements of the community and the individual, of individual freedom and individual responsibility, of limited government and unlimited markets.

Kirk described six basic "canons" or principles of conservatism:

* A divine intent, as well as personal conscience, rules society;
* Traditional life is filled with variety and mystery while most radical systems are characterized by a narrowing uniformity;
* Civilized society requires orders and classes;
* Property and freedom are inseparably connected;
* Man must control his will and his appetite, knowing that he is governed more by emotion than by reason; and
* Society must alter slowly.

The Conservative Mind was an impressive feat of scholarship--a synthesis of the ideas of the leading conservative Anglo-American thinkers and political leaders of the late 18th century through the early 20th century. The work established convincingly that there was a tradition of American conservatism that had existed since the Founding of the Republic. With one book, Russell Kirk made conservatism intellectually acceptable in America. Indeed, he gave the conservative movement its name.

However, the intellectual pedigree of American conservatism goes much farther back in time than the 18th century. In a subsequent book, Russell Kirk wrote that the roots of American order were first planted nearly three thousand years earlier.


Kirk used the device of five cities--Jerusalem, Athens, Rome, London, and Philadelphia--to trace their development. The roots first appeared in Jerusalem, with the Hebrew perception of a purposeful moral existence under God. They were strengthened in Athens, with the philosophical and political self-awareness of the Greeks. They were nurtured in Rome, by the Roman experience of law and social awareness. They were intertwined with the Christian understanding of human duties and human hopes, of man redeemed. They were joined by medieval custom, learning, and valor.

The roots of American order were then enriched by two great political experiments that occurred in London, the birthplace of parliaments and the guardian of common law, and in Philadelphia, where both the Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution were written. The miracle of Philadelphia was that the delegates were able to resolve, for the most part, the conflicting demands of freedom and order. They created a true national government but not an absolute government. They designed something new under the political sun--a federalism which carefully enumerated, separated, and restrained the powers of the national government.


So much for the use of the word "Modern." LOL
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Jul, 2009 08:45 pm
@ican711nm,
The courts didn't redefine the words. I replaced the meaning of the word uniform in the text and you have NOT shown me how those are false let alone how the term "throughout the United States" equates to "for every dollar earned."

It is YOU that is redefining words. Throughout the US does NOT mean for ever dollar earned and never can and never will.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Jul, 2009 08:48 pm
@ican711nm,
Quote:
The income tax was declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court near the end of the 19th Century.
Really? And which ruling are you changing the meaning of to make that claim?

The court ruled that taxes on rents were 'direct' taxes. They never ruled that income taxes were unconstitutional. In fact they had ruled they WERE constitutional several years earlier and the ruling you are attempting to give new meaning never overturned that earlier ruling.

The 16th amendment was to make rental income subject to income tax. Most income was already subject to income tax under previous rulings.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Jul, 2009 09:11 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

wikipedia, as adapted by Foxfyre wrote:
Modern American Conservatism/Classical Liberalism
(adapted from Wiki)

Modern American Conservatism (MAC)/Classical liberalism (also known as traditional liberalism[1], laissez-faire liberalism[2], and market liberalism[3] or, outside the United States and Britain, sometimes simply liberalism is a doctrine stressing individual freedom, free markets, and limited government.

Your phrase "adapted from" is a true wrist-slapper: The original Wikipedia article on classical liberalism, uncredited by Foxfyre, does not contain the words "Modern American Conservatism" or anything of the kind. You took this article, "adapted" it by adding the words "Modern American Conservatism (MAC)/", and then cited it as authority that the two ideologies are the same.

Oh, wait a minute: I'm getting a sense of -- excuse my French -- déjà vu here. Have you pulled this shtick earlier? Tell me it isn't so!


I gave Wiki credit for the language from their definition that I used which is most of their definition for classical liberalism. And yes, we have posted this definition again and again and again with concurrence from those who identify themselves as MAC that they can accept as a good definition of the core of MAC ideology.

We have also listed various other convictions shared by those who identify themselves as Modern American Conservatives, but the posted definition pretty well covers the basics.

Is there any part of it that you do not understand? Any part of it of with which you disagree?
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Jul, 2009 09:15 pm
@Foxfyre,
I don't know Thomas. Obviously you don't understand the thesis of Fox's post. I'm sure she'll be happy to let you know about your reading comprehension problems.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Jul, 2009 09:19 pm
@Foxfyre,
Oh, and when I first posted the entire Wiki definition on Classical Liberalism on this thread and identified it as a very good illustration of the core beliefs of MACs, I did link it and Wiki got full credit.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Thu 9 Jul, 2009 09:19 pm
@Foxfyre,
It isn't the definition that's hard to understand. It's your claim that classical liberalism and modern American conservatism are the same ideology. Apparently the Wikipedia authors found it hard to understand, too. Presumably that's why they don't identify classical liberalism with American conservatism of any flavor, and why you had to "adapt" their definition to make it say what you wanted it to, but didn't.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Jul, 2009 09:24 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

It isn't the definition that's hard to understand. It's the claim that classical liberalism and modern American conservatism are the same ideology. Apparently the Wikipedia authors found it hard to understand, too -- which is presumably why they don't identify classical liberalism with American conservatism of any flavor, and why you had to "adapt" their definition to make it say what you wanted it to say, but didn't.


Whoever wrote the Wiki definition was not addressing Modern American Conservatism. I addressed that when I started this thread.

But MACs don't call themselves classical liberals, even though that is pretty much what they are, because the term is not commonly used nor widely understood in our current culture. And, especially in America, it is too easy to confuse it with Modern American Liberals who share very little, if any, ideology with Classical Liberalism.

So, why do you think that classical liberalism and modern American conservatism are not pretty much the same thing?
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Jul, 2009 09:32 pm
@Foxfyre,
Oh, and one other thing. I used the Wiki definition, and explained when I first posted it, that I was using it because it covered all the bases and I thought was especially well done. And it was more succinct that what I probably would have worded myself. And we've just continued using it.

I don't have any problem including a link to Wiki's original definition though if anybody thinks that is important to do.
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.13 seconds on 01/24/2025 at 05:19:38