AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

But citing real corruption is a red herring and/or straw man when you compare it to insinuation of corruption when there is no case.

It isn't whether or not there is corruption in an administration. Corruption has been identified and PROVED in ALL administrations at least in my lifetime, and probably in all including George Washington's. I can't think of any in which at least somebody didn't go to jail.

The issue here is intellectual honesty. It is okay to wonder if there is fire when we see smoke. It is NOT okay to attempt to utilize smear tactics that will make the naive and gullible believe that something is true whether or not it has been proved. And the meanspirited who try to create wrongdoing where none exists are every bit as bad as most of those whom they accuse. That, in my opinion, is one of the most insidious and damning forms of corruption of all.

I wonder where this attitude was amongst Conservatives in the run-up to the Iraq war, a period riddled with lies and half-truths, with smears and words designed to make the naive and gullible think that we HAD to attack.

I wonder where it is in the examination of said events. I have seen precious little of this attitude displayed.

Cycloptichorn

Then you haven't read the threads. I would refer you to the Iraq thread and several others for a full discussion; however, you will find many points of view who will disagree with your own there.

(And I long for liberals who can argue an issue on its own merits without trying to divert to other issues as if that was valid debate.)

The original issue was already settled - on it's own merits. We both agreed that this was corrupt activity, that it's par for the course, and that it's typical of the Republican party. You simply choose to say that it's also typical for the Dems, and nothing worth discussing. Fine with me, but that doesn't invalidate my original claim. Unless you have something else to add?

I have seen plenty of points of view that say that there were lies and deception leading up to the Iraq war; just not from supposed 'conservatives,' who have mostly put out half-assed excuses instead.

Cycloptichorn

Fox, a fair number of them went to jail. That doesn't happen with smears. And we haven't even dealt with the corruption that led to the politicization of the Justice Department, which is a violation of federal law. No, I'm sorry, your rose-colored glasses have turned opaque.

No, I don't think we agreed on the same principle at all, nor do I agree with your characterization of my argument. But whatever. Agreement is not likely to occur through discussing it further.

I think that I summed your position up pretty well: you aren't concerned with corruption in the slightest in the Republican party. This isn't to say you aren't aware of it; you just don't care.

Cycloptichorn

No rose colored glasses here. If you've followed my comments for any length of time you would know that in spades. Whether you are too liberal to have the intellectual honesty to admit that is another matter.

This discussion does NOT involve proved corruption. This discussion involves insinuation, innuendo, and/or overt accusations of corruption when none has been identified or proved. Now if you wish to discuss THAT we can continue. Otherwise, if you wish to change subjects to an issue of proved corruption, please do so openly and honestly, and, if there is sufficient interest, I'm sure people will respond. On this thread, I would prefer that it be done within the context of Conservative values or the lack thereof, however.

Bush is not a conservative. The current Republican Party is not a conservative party.

Here again are the ideas advocated by most of the conservatives I know.

We want to change our course toward the full employment of all of the following principles, and away from their increasing abandonment:

My Version of The Ten Commandments, Exodus 20:1 - 20:14

And God spoke all these words, saying:
I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Thou shalt have no other gods before Me; thou shall not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; thou shall not bow down unto them , nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me; and showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments.

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain.
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work; but the seventh day is a sabbath unto the Lord thy God, in it thou shalt not do any manner of work, nor thy wife, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy man-servant, nor thy maid- servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested on the seventh day; wherefore the Lord blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it.

Honour thy father and thy mother, that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

Thou shalt not commit murder.

Thou shalt not commit adultery or fornicate.

Thou shalt not steal.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house; thou shall not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his man servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is thy neighbour's.


The Declaration of Independence
Adopted in Congress 4 July 1776

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

The Constitution of the United States of America
Effective as of March 4, 1789
We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Article I. Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

Wisdom circa 1778: Alexander Fraser Tytler, better known as Lord Woodhouselee (1747 - 1813)

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average of the world's greatest civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, and from dependency back to bondage."

President John F. Kennedy

"No American is ever made better off by pulling a fellow American down, and all of us are made better off whenever any one of us is made better off. … A rising tide raises all boats."


The Change that is Required

Alas, too many Americans have already discovered "they can vote themselves money from the public treasure." An increasing number of Americans do this by electing candidates who ignore our Constitution and promise to vote and do vote Americans "money from the public treasure." As a result we are headed from "complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, and from dependency back to bondage."

To stop and reverse this damnable trend, we must find and support candidates who shun the politics of envy for the politics of freedom: the politics of securing our God given rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Who among the current candidates shuns the politics of envy for the politics of freedom? Indeed, who among all of us Americans shuns the politics of envy for the politics of freedom?

For us to be true Americans, we must root for everyone to become the best they can be, and we must stop seeking to suppress those who accomplish more than we do.

DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS HAVE BEEN LEGISLATING OR ADJUDICATING THE CORRUPTION OF OUR CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC. WE WANT THAT CORRUPTION STOPPED AND OUR CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC RESTORED. HERE IS HOW WE CAN BEGIN TO ACCOMPLISH THAT CHANGE.

1. Reform the Federal Government to comply strictly with those powers delegated to it by the lawfully amended USA Constitution, and begin by terminating those federal departments not expressly authorized by the USA Constitution;

2. Appoint federal judges who will be bound by the USA Constitution, and who will fulfill their oath to support the U.S.A. Constitution, and remove from office any federal judge that cites foreign law in support of his or her decisions;

3. Remove all federal limitations and impediments to the development of USA petroleum reserves to facilitate USA energy independence of foreign countries;

4. In accord with the USA Constitution, Article I, Section 8, 1st paragraph, replace the current federal tax system with one that is uniform per each and every dollar value taxed regardless of who or what is taxed;

5. Prohibit individuals from being prosecuted on the basis of what they voluntary disclose on their tax returns.

6. Limit annual federal expenditures to annual federal income;

7. Require all voters to supply proof of U.S.A. citizenship and be lawfully registered at least 13 days before voting,

8. Repeal all Campaign Finance laws;

9. Repeal all federal charities;

10. Require all federal appointments recommended by the president to be voted on by Congress within 6 months from the time the President submits a recommendation to Congress;

11. Prohibit Congress from establishing any form of theistic or atheistic religion;

12. Permit the display of both religious and non-religious artifacts on selected areas of federal government property on a first come first serve basis;

13. Require the Congress to submit to the state legislatures for their approval a Constitutional Amendment that empowers three-quarters of the state legislatures to vacate USA Supreme Court decisions.

Ican writes


So where do we find such candidates? Was Ron Paul one of them? How about Bob Barr? Nader? We know for certain it isn't Obama, and in this regard, McCain is a question mark.

Bringing up Ron Paul only reminds me that the right isn't ready to do the right thing. I was really impressed by him, still am. He caught my attention big time. To me, he represented a candidate from the right with real leadership qualities and a philosophy which is respectable to views contrary to his own. I would have voted for Paul in a second. Had he been on the ticket.

T
K
O

Where Ron Paul did not emulate conservative values was in his willingness to declare defeat in Iraq immediately and thereby likely undoing all the good that has been done. Also his isolationist and protectionist points of view did not fit well with what most Conservatives consider freedom and sound economic policy. Otherwise I think he resonates well with American conservatives, but those three things were tolerable in a Congressman with limited powers, but not suitable as President with responsibility as Commander in Chief and for negotiating international policy.

Whether Paul declared defeat or Bush stood on an aircraft carrier and claimed victory is irrelevant.

Conservatives need to get in tune with the reality of the Iraq war.

T
K
O

Whose reality? You couldn't possibly think that the liberal view of Iraq is reality, could you?

Victory in Iraq now spells defeat for Democrats, so no matter how much progress has been made, Dems will cling to the politics of the past, such as this is another Vietnam. It will be very tough for Dems if Bush turns out to be a visionary, one that dared to change the dynamics of a Middle East that is dominated by dictators and the backward politics of yesteryear. It may take another generation to see the total effects of our presence in Iraq, and don't tell me it will breed more terrorists, that is the mantra spouted daily, but hatred was being taught long before we arrived on the scene, obviously.

I am not one to believe the region will be cured, but we don't fully know yet how the dynamics of the region will have been changed, any more than we knew what would happen in Vietnam. People thought we lost in Vietnam, but 30 years later, there is some evidence that perhaps we didn't.

It DID and will continue to breed more terrorists. It's the sort of thing that does that.

McCain has hung his hat on 'winning' in Iraq, yet his own budget plans call for a bigger redeployment then Obama's. Hard to know what the difference between Obama's leaving, and McCain's winning, will be.

Cycloptichorn

So does combating crime create more criminals, cyclops? How about in Afghanistan, you supported that, right? Did that create more terorists there too?

Depending on how you combat crime, it sometimes does create more criminals. Look at Los Angeles' anti-gang task force in the 90's; the lawlessness they operated on contributed to an already dangerous situation, and the eroded trust in the police that ensued most definitely created more criminals and more crime.

I think that the invasion of Afghanistan had to happen (they bragged 'bout attacking us, after all), but the fact that we didn't finish the job, didn't follow up the initial attack with focused rebuilding and working with the region? Yes, it created more terrorists overall.

Cycloptichorn

Weak answer:
Whomever true conservative can win a lottery paying at least $200 million after taxes and is willing to invest that in electing a true conservative candidate.

Less weak answer:
If I were to obtain $200 million from a legitimate source, I would be such a candidate.

Strong answer:
Convince presumptive candidate John McCain to open the Republican convention to a nomination process permitting consideration of additional candidates who are true conservatives per my definition.

How shall we accomplish the strong answer? I don't yet know, but I'm working on it. In the meantime, get your conservative acquaintences to play lotteries in the hope of subsequently gaining the necessary funds required for a real conservative candidate.

Otherwise I think he resonates well with American conservatives, but those three things were tolerable in a Congressman with limited powers, but not suitable as President with responsibility as Commander in Chief and for negotiating international policy.[/quote]


Did I mention that the disconnect from reality is simply stunning? Foxy has spent the last eight years supporting a group that has shown itself to be the dictionary definition of abysmal wrt responsibilities as CiC and for negotiating international policy.