55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 May, 2009 12:06 pm
@blatham,
blatham wrote:

So, he said almost nothing about the proper form or role of government. Including not giving any (and I do mean ANY) suggestion that government ought NOT to organize itself so as to redistribute wealth?

Do I have you right?


If we are talking about Jesus, to the best of my knowledge, I believe that is right. He did not despise the tax collectors as the Pharisees did, though he acknowledged how the Pharisees felt about them. He gave no indication that it was wrong or improper to submit to the Roman government authority. But I do not recall any teaching on what the worldly government should be. He did see a difference between that and God's authority.

In Old Testament times, however, the judges were the governing authority before the kings took over that role. And it was primarily the judgment of government that Medved was addressing in this essay. IMO, here is the primary point that Medved wanted to make:

Quote:
The importance of this distinction particularly concerned the great Rashi (Rabbi Shlomo Ytizchaki, 1040-1105), considered the most authoritative expositor of millennia-old oral traditions on the Biblical text. More than 900 years ago, Rashi addressed the verse in question and faced the puzzle of why the Bible forbids bias on behalf of the poor even before it forbids favoritism for the rich. “You shall not say, ‘This man is poor, and the rich man is obliged to support him,” the eminent Rabbi wrote. A judge is strictly prohibited from saying “I shall favor the poor man in this suit, and thus he will make a respectable living.” As a 20th Century rabbi (Nosson Scherman) succinctly summarized the point: “The Torah insists that justice be rendered honestly; charity may not interfere with it.”

Ironically, the Jewish world focused on this point this year in precisely the same week (the first Sabbath in May) in which President Obama faced his first opportunity to appoint a new justice to the Supreme Court of the United States. In some of his campaign comments about criteria for such an appointment, the future president specifically indicated he wanted a judge with a “heart” for the poor and downtrodden, and who would concentrate on their specific interests and needs"in other words, precisely the sort of jurist prohibited by Leviticus.


Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 May, 2009 12:24 pm
@Foxfyre,
I should qualify my remarks to acknowledge that the first Christians did organize themselves into orderly structures so that they could better carry out their obligations to feed the hungry, take care of widows and orphans, etc. and those structures did include a sort of heirarchal government with different parts of it having certain responsibilities. But the basic teaching remained. Taking care of the needy remained dependent on donations voluntarily provided. There was no suggestion that such organizations looked to the Roman government to help them out in those duties in any way, nor did they consider it a responsibility of government to do so. For the most part, neither did any US president up to FDR.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  2  
Reply Thu 7 May, 2009 12:30 pm
@Foxfyre,
Michael Medved wrote:
In some of his campaign comments about criteria for such an appointment, the future president specifically indicated he wanted a judge with a “heart” for the poor and downtrodden, and who would concentrate on their specific interests and needs"in other words, precisely the sort of jurist prohibited by Leviticus.


For Medved to say that Leviticus precisely prohibits such a jurist, is a misuse of scripture, in my opinion.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 May, 2009 12:31 pm
http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/Foden20090507-OffShore20090508011032.jpg

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/5-7-09whpressRGB20090507090148.jpg

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/mrz050709dAPR20090507035309.jpg
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 May, 2009 12:37 pm
@Foxfyre,
Funny ones.

Are you willing to admit that you were incorrect about your claim re: the number of poor increasing under gov't programs designed to assist them?

Cycloptichorn
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 May, 2009 12:41 pm
just for the heck of it....

Quote:
Jesus on Paying Taxes to Caesar (Mark 12:13-17)

13 And they send unto him certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians, to catch him in his words. 14 And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not? 12:15 Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it.
16 And they brought it. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar's. 17 And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.


Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 May, 2009 12:56 pm
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:

Michael Medved wrote:
In some of his campaign comments about criteria for such an appointment, the future president specifically indicated he wanted a judge with a “heart” for the poor and downtrodden, and who would concentrate on their specific interests and needs"in other words, precisely the sort of jurist prohibited by Leviticus.


For Medved to say that Leviticus precisely prohibits such a jurist, is a misuse of scripture, in my opinion.


Why? What can you find in Leviticus that contradicts Medved's conclusion?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 May, 2009 12:57 pm
@DontTreadOnMe,
DontTreadOnMe wrote:

just for the heck of it....

Quote:
Jesus on Paying Taxes to Caesar (Mark 12:13-17)

13 And they send unto him certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians, to catch him in his words. 14 And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not? 12:15 Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it.
16 And they brought it. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar's. 17 And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.



Yep, and if you had been reading what I had posted, you would have seen that i referred to the same passage. It does not change the premise or disagree with Medved's argument in any way.
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 May, 2009 01:06 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

DontTreadOnMe wrote:

just for the heck of it....

Quote:
Jesus on Paying Taxes to Caesar (Mark 12:13-17)

13 And they send unto him certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians, to catch him in his words. 14 And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not? 12:15 Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it.
16 And they brought it. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar's. 17 And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.



Yep, and if you had been reading what I had posted, you would have seen that i referred to the same passage. It does not change the premise or disagree with Medved's argument in any way.


which is why i said, just for the heck of it. it was simply rhetorical.

but then you know how i feel about mixing religion and government, so this is only philisophical woolgathering for me, anyway.

and something to do while i'm eating this extremely tasty bagel with cream cheese. Smile
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 May, 2009 01:09 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Funny ones.

Are you willing to admit that you were incorrect about your claim re: the number of poor increasing under gov't programs designed to assist them?

Cycloptichorn


I will admit that statistics would suggest that the poverty rate is lower now than its statistical high. I will stipulate however, that the definition of poverty and the threshholds determining it have changed several times over the years and I am fairly certain those hanges are not reflected in the same statistics.

Now, can you show from any authoritative source that whatever poverty was reduced was reduced due to government initiatives rather than from any other factors?

Quote:
War on Poverty Revisited
by Thomas Sowell (August 17, 2004)

August 20th marks the 40th anniversary of one of the major turning points in American social history. That was the date on which President Lyndon Johnson signed legislation creating his "War on Poverty" program in 1964.

Never had there been such a comprehensive program to tackle poverty at its roots, to offer more opportunities to those starting out in life, to rehabilitate those who had fallen by the wayside, and to make dependent people self-supporting. Its intentions were the best. But we know what road is paved with good intentions.

The War on Poverty represented the crowning triumph of the liberal vision of society -- and of government programs as the solution to social problems. The disastrous consequences that followed have made the word "liberal" so much of a political liability that today even candidates with long left-wing track records have evaded or denied that designation.

In the liberal vision, slums bred crime. But brand-new government housing projects almost immediately became new centers of crime and quickly degenerated into new slums. Many of these projects later had to be demolished. Unfortunately, the assumptions behind those projects were not demolished, but live on in other disastrous programs, such as Section 8 housing.

Rates of teenage pregnancy and venereal disease had been going down for years before the new 1960s attitudes toward sex spread rapidly through the schools, helped by War on Poverty money. These downward trends suddenly reversed and skyrocketed.

The murder rate had also been going down, for decades, and in 1960 was just under half of what it had been in 1934. Then the new 1960s policies toward curing the "root causes" of crime and creating new "rights" for criminals began. Rates of violent crime, including murder, skyrocketed.

The black family, which had survived centuries of slavery and discrimination, began rapidly disintegrating in the liberal welfare state that subsidized unwed pregnancy and changed welfare from an emergency rescue to a way of life.

Government social programs such as the War on Poverty were considered a way to reduce urban riots. Such programs increased sharply during the 1960s. So did urban riots. Later, during the Reagan administration, which was denounced for not promoting social programs, there were far fewer urban riots.

Neither the media nor most of our educational institutions question the assumptions behind the War on Poverty. Even conservatives often attribute much of the progress that has been made by lower-income people to these programs.

For example, the usually insightful quarterly magazine City Journal says in its current issue: "Beginning in the mid-sixties, the condition of most black Americans improved markedly."

That is completely false and misleading.

The economic rise of blacks began decades earlier, before any of the legislation and policies that are credited with producing that rise. The continuation of the rise of blacks out of poverty did not -- repeat, did not -- accelerate during the 1960s.

The poverty rate among black families fell from 87 percent in 1940 to 47 percent in 1960, during an era of virtually no major civil rights legislation or anti-poverty programs. It dropped another 17 percentage points during the decade of the 1960s and one percentage point during the 1970s, but this continuation of the previous trend was neither unprecedented nor something to be arbitrarily attributed to the programs like the War on Poverty.

In various skilled trades, the incomes of blacks relative to whites more than doubled between 1936 and 1959 -- that is, before the magic 1960s decade when supposedly all progress began. The rise of blacks in professional and other high-level occupations was greater in the five years preceding the Civil Rights Act of 1964 than in the five years afterwards.

While some good things did come out of the 1960s, as out of many other decades, so did major social disasters that continue to plague us today. Many of those disasters began quite clearly during the 1960s.

But what are mere facts compared to a heady vision? Liberal assumptions -- "two Americas," for example -- are being recycled this election year, even by candidates who evade the "liberal" label.
http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=3864


Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 May, 2009 01:10 pm
@DontTreadOnMe,
Damn DTOM. Now I have to go find a bagel and cream cheese. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Setanta
 
  4  
Reply Thu 7 May, 2009 01:12 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
Now, can you show from any authoritative source that whatever poverty was reduced was reduced due to government initiatives rather than from any other factors?


Why should he do that? He was just pointing out that you have no evidence for the idiotic claim that government assistance programs have increased poverty. He doesn't have to prove the opposite case in order to demonstrate that you were just spreading manure, dedicated farmer that you are.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Thu 7 May, 2009 01:17 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:

I will admit that statistics would suggest that the poverty rate is lower now than its statistical high. I will stipulate however, that the definition of poverty and the threshholds determining it have changed several times over the years and I am fairly certain those hanges are not reflected in the same statistics.


Is this not a matter of inflation, primarily?

Quote:

Now, can you show from any authoritative source that whatever poverty was reduced was reduced due to government initiatives rather than from any other factors?


No, I cannot; I have not done research which would show this. But that isn't necessary for my stated position to be considered correct: that the rate of those who are poor in America has not increased under the purview of government programs designed to reduce their number.

If you want to give all the credit to private charities, fine with me. I think it's purely obvious that some of the government programs have helped and no one cause can take all the credit for the improvements.

Cycloptichorn
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 May, 2009 01:17 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Damn DTOM. Now I have to go find a bagel and cream cheese. You should be ashamed of yourself.


ummmmmmmm, sooo tasty!

  http://images.inmagine.com/img/imagesource/is408/is408024.jpg

don't feel too bad, foxy.. ms. dtom started a herba-life diet this week. i'm walking very quietly and staying out of sight. Laughing
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 May, 2009 01:18 pm
@DontTreadOnMe,
You have a truly evil streak DTOM. (We're trying to be healthy here too but gee, you only live once. Thawed out and am toasting the bagel now.)
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 May, 2009 01:26 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
I recommend that you read....REALLY read....more of Dr. Sowell's writing, most particularly his books. You probably won't agree with him on every conclusion--I don't--but he has devoted most of his adult life studying this stuff and doing analysis that goes way beyond computer models and raw statistics. He is truly an expert on issues of race and poverty and has much to teach those willing to learn. Another to read is Shelby Steele who provides some poignant insights into racial and poverty issues.
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 May, 2009 01:26 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

You have a truly evil streak DTOM. (We're trying to be healthy here too but gee, you only live once. Thawed out and am toasting the bagel now.)


"damn the torpedos! full speed ahead!"
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 May, 2009 01:28 pm
@Foxfyre,
So, we have a talmudic scholar (whose teacher's children and a lot of neighbors were slaughtered by christians, we might note for the sake of historical remembrance) writing one thousand years ago and interpreting a passage from Leviticus which Medved uses as a justification for his claim that charity ought not to be the province of government. Of course, as OE notes, this is a happy bit of cherry-picking from Medved. For another example, several verses later (34) we have:

"But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, even if chicano or muslim or french, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

We'll just note that there is no reference to passport or green card here, and jesus was silent on this as well.

Medved and you might find some comfort for your notions about the role of government and the proper sort of SC justice ideology (more accurately, Medved is merely forwarding a particular conservative/GOP talking point designed to foster negative responses to Obama's use of "empathy" as part of a predictable advance attack on anyone he's likely to choose for this position) but it is such an obvious corruption of christian agape that one shakes his head seeing you advance it.

We understand that he and you would have responded in identical manner nine years ago had Karen Hughes and Bush have talked about "empathetic conservatism". We just know it would have happened.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 May, 2009 01:31 pm
@blatham,
No matter how you slice the apple, however, the point remains. You cannot administer justice if you favor one group over another as being more deserving of justice. There is no room for empathy when deciding judicial matters justly but the law itself must be the basis for judicial decisions.

If judges begin deciding what is and is not the law, we move from a representative republic to a totalitarian state. Except in matters of strict interpretation of the spirit and intent of the Constitution, the judge should not be able to trump or override the one elected to represent us and whose decisions are subject to the criticism of the public that will be expressed in the next election.
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Thu 7 May, 2009 01:34 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

I recommend that you read....REALLY read....more of Dr. Sowell's writing, most particularly his books. You probably won't agree with him on every conclusion--I don't--but he has devoted most of his adult life studying this stuff and doing analysis that goes way beyond computer models and raw statistics. He is truly an expert on issues of race and poverty and has much to teach those willing to learn.


Thank you for the recommendation, but I must decline. I will say that I read in full every piece you have posted by him in this thread; and I have not been especially impressed by the quality of either his argumentation nor his tendency to blame Liberals for the problems our society faces without ever giving them credit for the advances Liberalism has brought to his people and our society in general.

It's okay with me if you feel differently about him, not looking to argue about it.

Cycloptichorn
 

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