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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Apr, 2009 04:14 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
What's that old saying? With facts, you can prove anything that is even remotely true....
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Apr, 2009 04:29 pm
@old europe,
How is something REMOTELY true?
It either is true or it isnt true.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Apr, 2009 04:31 pm
@old europe,
oe, Thanks for making that emphasis. I've been reading so much about these issues, my brain is suffering from overload.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Apr, 2009 04:35 pm
@mysteryman,
Exactly.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Apr, 2009 05:01 pm
@ican711nm,
Show us where he "promised" it?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Apr, 2009 05:19 pm
Quote:
Democracy and Majority Rule

Democracy and majority rule give an aura of legitimacy to acts that would otherwise be deemed tyranny. Think about it. How many decisions in our day-to-day lives would we like to be made through majority rule or the democratic process? How about the decision whether you should watch a football game on television or "Law and Order"? What about whether you drive a Chevrolet or a Ford, or whether your Easter dinner is turkey or ham? Were such decisions made in the political arena, most of us would deem it tyranny. Why isn't it also tyranny for the democratic process to mandate what type of light bulbs we use, how many gallons of water to flush toilets or whether money should be taken out of our paycheck for retirement?

The founders of our nation held a deep abhorrence for democracy and majority rule. In Federalist Paper No. 10, James Madison wrote, "Measures are too often decided, not according to the rules of justice and the rights of the minor party, but by the superior force of an interested and overbearing majority." John Adams predicted, "Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There was never a democracy yet that did not commit suicide." Our founders intended for us to have a republican form of limited government where the protection of individual God-given rights was the primary job of government.

Alert to the dangers of majoritarian tyranny, the Constitution's framers inserted several anti-majority rules. One such rule is that election of the president is not decided by a majority vote but instead by the Electoral College. Nine states have over 50 percent of the U.S. population. If a simple majority were the rule, conceivably these nine states could determine the presidency. Fortunately, they can't because they have only 225 Electoral College votes when 270 of the 538 total are needed. Were it not for the Electoral College, that some politicians say is antiquated and would like to do away with, presidential candidates could safely ignore the less populous states.

Part of the reason our founders created two houses of Congress was to have another obstacle to majority rule. Fifty-one senators can block the designs of 435 representatives and 49 senators. The Constitution gives the president a veto to weaken the power of 535 members of both houses of Congress. It takes two-thirds of both houses of Congress to override a presidential veto.

To change the constitution requires not a majority but a two-thirds vote of both Houses to propose an amendment, and to be enacted requires ratification by three-fourths of state legislatures. The Constitution's Article V empowers two-thirds of state legislatures to call for a constitutional convention to propose amendments that become law when ratified by three-fourths of state legislatures. I used to be for this option as a means of enacting a spending limitation amendment to the Constitution but have since reconsidered. Unlike the 1787 convention attended by men of high stature such as James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington and John Adams, today's attendees would be moral midgets: the likes of Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, Olympia Snowe and Nancy Pelosi.

In addition to an abhorrence of democracy, and the recognition that government posed the gravest threat to liberty, our founders harbored a deep distrust and suspicion of Congress. This suspicion and distrust is exemplified by the phraseology used throughout the Constitution, particularly our Bill of Rights, containing phrases such as Congress shall not: abridge, infringe, deny, disparage or violate. Today's Americans think Congress has the constitutional authority to do anything upon which they can get a majority vote. We think whether a particular measure is a good idea or bad idea should determine passage as opposed to whether that measure lies within the enumerated powers granted Congress by the Constitution. Unfortunately, for the future of our nation, Congress has successfully exploited American constitutional ignorance or contempt.
http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/articles/09/DemocracyAndMajorityRule.htm
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Apr, 2009 05:27 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
Why isn't it also tyranny for the democratic process to mandate what type of light bulbs we use, how many gallons of water to flush toilets or whether money should be taken out of our paycheck for retirement?


Easy; each of these actions carry consequences which affect Humanity outside of the individual's life. Society has a vested interest in protecting the good of the environment and our nation's fiscal security.

The fact that Williams cannot understand basic facts about the inter-connectedness of human life calls into question why anyone would care what he has to say on any issue.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  2  
Reply Thu 23 Apr, 2009 05:58 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Quote:
Democracy and Majority Rule

Democracy and majority rule give an aura of legitimacy to acts that would otherwise be deemed tyranny. Think about it. How many decisions in our day-to-day lives would we like to be made through majority rule or the democratic process? . . .

Alert to the dangers of majoritarian tyranny, the Constitution's framers inserted several anti-majority rules.



Why you are posting this? Are you posting this to demonstrate your inconsistent arguments? I mean, depending on the issue, one day you're an advocate for majority rule and the next day you're against it.

Foxfyre wrote:
When the majority of people want it to be like you want it, then it will be that way. It is as simple as that.

Link

Your posting history demonstrates that majority rule is acceptable to you so long as the majority is oppressing homosexuals, approving torture, funding wars, or erecting shrines to the Christian God on government property. On the other hand, majority rule is not acceptable to you if our elected representatives appropriate public money to build roads or to feed hungry children.

So please explain how posting this tyranny of the mob article supports any of your arguments.

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Apr, 2009 06:10 pm
@Debra Law,
Just another case of Foxie contradicting herself! LOL She never seems to learn. (And she's a school teacher?)
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Apr, 2009 06:14 pm
@cicerone imposter,
The latest fact not discussed about torture is that we have learned that they used torture 183 times in one month. That seems to prove torture doesn't work, does it not?

It's like everything else Bush decided to do without listening to the people who could have told him what not to do. All became "yes" members of the Bush team, because they knew any challenge to his decision would mean job/career loss. Poor souls didn't have any morals when it came to their jobs.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Apr, 2009 06:14 pm
@Debra Law,
Nice find.

I expect the answer to be something like this:

Foxfyre wrote:
No, they don't contradict each other. They are speaking to a different point being made--a distinction you frequently have problems with--but otherwise are saying exactly the same thing.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Apr, 2009 06:26 pm
@Debra Law,
Foxie and MACs love tyranny only when they can apply it. They are a bunch of hypocrites that assumes we don't keep track of what she says. She's been caught more times with contradictions than most any other poster on A2K.

However, people like okie and ican are in the same league; they don't know what they are talking about most times.

okie can forecast Obama's performance as president after three months, and ican can predict that Obama will serve two terms as our president.

Where do these people come from?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Apr, 2009 06:43 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Another fact about waterboarding being a crime. Japanese soldiers were prosecuted by the US for their use of waterboarding.

As so many conservatives would have us believe, waterboarding is no longer a crime. However, all of the military Advocate Generals have stated that waterboarding is torture.

Conservatives must live in another world where whatever they do is legal and moral.

Scary.
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Apr, 2009 06:50 pm
The Reps must be sick. O has been in office about 100 days and he is making a badly needed foray into the credit card mess. His initiative may lead to a Bill of Rights for credit card holders. What did the Reps due during the past eight years: zilch.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Apr, 2009 07:02 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Sean Hannity said he will volunteer to waterboarding for charity, so Keith Olbermann offered $1000/second to Hannity. Will he accept?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Apr, 2009 08:19 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I used to think Bill Bennett was a smart guy, but he also said waterboarding is not torture. I once was going to vote for him, but his intelligence just dropped 25 points.
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Apr, 2009 09:04 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

MACs


i'm not sure whatcha mean by this, ci. c'nya help me out ?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Apr, 2009 09:10 pm
@DontTreadOnMe,
It's Foxie's definition of Modern American Conservatives (MACs). Most of us have already told her that her definition has no real meaning in real life; she can't name one politician that fits her definition. It's some kind of subjective ideal she has about the GOP/conservatives. She has a couple of a2k members who agree with her.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Apr, 2009 09:11 pm
@DontTreadOnMe,
MAC was TKO's acronym for Modern American Conservative as opposed to European conservatism or the old-fashioned, intractable hard line conservatism which is how some on this thread want to define it.

Basically MAC is classical liberalism or a philosophy of small, limited government and emphasis on God-given, unalienable rights and freedom which many A2K 'conervatives' embrace.

It is defined:

Quote:
Classical liberalism
Classical liberalism (also known as traditional liberalism[1], laissez-faire liberalism[2], and market liberalism[3] or, outside the United States and Britain, sometimes simply liberalism is a doctrine stressing individual freedom, free markets, and limited government. This includes the importance of human rationality, individual property rights, natural rights, the protection of civil liberties, individual freedom from restraint, equality under the law, constitutional limitation of government, free markets, and a gold standard to place fiscal constraints on government as exemplified in the writings of John Locke, Adam Smith, David Hume, David Ricardo, Voltaire, Montesquieu and others.

As such, it is the fusion of economic liberalism with political liberalism of the late 18th and 19th centuries. The "normative core" of classical liberalism is the idea that laissez-faire economics will bring about a spontaneous order or invisible hand that benefits the society, though it does not necessarily oppose the state's provision of some basic public goods with what constitutes public goods being seen as very limited. The qualification classical was applied retroactively to distinguish it from more recent, 20th-century conceptions of liberalism and its related movements, such as social liberalism Classical liberals are suspicious of all but the most minimal government and object to the welfare state.

Ludwig von Mises, Friedrich Hayek, and Milton Friedman, are credited with influencing a revival of classical liberalism in the twentieth century after it fell out of favor beginning in the late nineteenth century and much of the twentieth century. In relation to economic issues, this revival is sometimes referred to, mainly by its opponents, as "neoliberalism". The German "ordoliberalism" has a whole different meaning, since the likes of Alexander Rüüüüstow and Wilhelm Rööööpke have advocated a more interventionist state, as opposed to laissez-faire liberals. Classical liberalism has many aspects in common with modern libertarianism, with the terms being used almost interchangeably by those who support limited government.


The leftwingers aren't able to understand this and have so far refused to discuss it.

It's sort of like the discussion on Obama's decision to investigate and prosecute those involved in interrogating captured terrorists earlier today. The leftwingers want to make the discussion a defense or condemnation of torture which is not what the discussion was about. They seem to be unable to grasp what the topic actually was.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Apr, 2009 09:28 pm
@Foxfyre,
We have discussed it ad nauseum.

Quote:
Classical liberalism
Classical liberalism (also known as traditional liberalism[1], laissez-faire liberalism[2], and market liberalism[3] or, outside the United States and Britain, sometimes simply liberalism is a doctrine stressing individual freedom * "individual freedom" sounds fine, but it's not possible in practice, because we are a country of laws. , free markets,
* Here, again, "free markets" sounds good, but a good economic system must have laws that regulates commerce. Free markets is what got us into this recent financial crisis.
and limited government. * We would all love to have "limited government," but neither the liberals or conservatives have practiced limited government. This includes the importance of human rationality * too broad to make any sense, individual property rights * federal, state, and local governments has the right to take your property, natural rights * Funny a conservative would mention this when they deny gays and lesbians the right to marry, the protection of civil liberties * Our civil liberties were taken away with Bush's illegal wiretaps, individual freedom from restraint * minorities (especially blacks and Hispanics) in this country are still treated unfairly, equality under the law *another sham; they would deny gays and lesbians equal rights, constitutional limitation of government * MACs want to define what this means (they are against most of Obama's initiatives), free markets, and a gold standard to place fiscal constraints on government as exemplified in the writings of John Locke, Adam Smith, David Hume, David Ricardo, Voltaire, Montesquieu and others
* the Constitution allows our government to collect and spend in accordance with "the general welfare" clause. MACs want to define what they are..
 

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