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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Apr, 2009 10:26 am
@cicerone imposter,
[quote="cicerone imposter]Which is it?[/quote]
BOTH! Responsibility for the economic crisis belongs to Dodd and Frank and other individual members of Congress, and belongs to Congress and the President. Dodd and Frank and other individuals members of Congress influenced the Congressional majority not to correct excessive spending and lending. The Congressional majority refused to respect the President's warnings about the excessive spending and lending. The President failed to persuade the Congress to cut back the excessive spending and lending.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Apr, 2009 10:32 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
You claim Bush's budget impacts only eight years, and Obama's budget impacts sixteen years.


ican711nm wrote:
Obama is promising a deficit over his 8 year term of office, 2009 thru 2016, of $6,789 billion, or more than 3 times Bush’s 2001 thru 2008 deficit of $1,962 billion, in order to rescue the USA’s economy.


The following is posted just for you, Cice.
(1) 2009
(2) 2010
(3) 2011
(4) 2012
(5) 2013
(6) 2014
(7) 2015
(8) 2016

Hmmm ... that's 8 years!
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Apr, 2009 10:35 am
@ican711nm,
ican wrote:
Quote:
Obama is promising a deficit over his 8 year term of office,


And how did you come to the conclusion that Obama will be serving two terms in office?
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Apr, 2009 11:28 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
And how did you come to the conclusion that Obama will be serving two terms in office?


He promised that his budget would be what he projected, if he were to serve 2, 4-year terms.

Because of Obama's deficit projections if he serves 2009-2016, I sincerely hope some way will be found to lawfully remove Obama from office before the end of 2009.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Thu 23 Apr, 2009 11:33 am
@ican711nm,
What I really want to see are the prosecution of the Bush gang who authorized torture of prisoners. That'll really make my day!
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Thu 23 Apr, 2009 11:40 am
@cicerone imposter,
~~~~ !????! ~~~~
~~~~ (O|O) ~~~~
.~~~~ ( O ) ~~~~.

Your shockingly hysterical post is duly noted!
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  2  
Reply Thu 23 Apr, 2009 11:51 am
@ican711nm,
Keep in mind that O is reducing taxes on 95% of the people, those who are the ones most likely to spend the savings. Increasing taxes on the wealthy, who don't spend a large percentage of their income, will help reduce deficits, and bring some social and economic fairness. The income and wealth of the super rich have been soaring, while the lower classes see theirs plummeting.

O is spending where the result is more employment. Remember that the great depression didn't end until the eve of WWII, when there was massive government spending.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Apr, 2009 11:52 am
Quote:
REVIEW & OUTLOOK
APRIL 23, 2009
Presidential Poison
His invitation to indict Bush officials will haunt Obama's Presidency

Mark down the date. Tuesday, April 21, 2009, is the moment that any chance of a new era of bipartisan respect in Washington ended. By inviting the prosecution of Bush officials for their antiterror legal advice, President Obama has injected a poison into our politics that he and the country will live to regret.

Policy disputes, often bitter, are the stuff of democratic politics. Elections settle those battles, at least for a time, and Mr. Obama's victory in November has given him the right to change policies on interrogations, Guantanamo, or anything on which he can muster enough support. But at least until now, the U.S. political system has avoided the spectacle of a new Administration prosecuting its predecessor for policy disagreements. This is what happens in Argentina, Malaysia or Peru, countries where the law is treated merely as an extension of political power.

If this analogy seems excessive, consider how Mr. Obama has framed the issue. He has absolved CIA operatives of any legal jeopardy, no doubt because his intelligence advisers told him how damaging that would be to CIA morale when Mr. Obama needs the agency to protect the country. But he has pointedly invited investigations against Republican legal advisers who offered their best advice at the request of CIA officials.

"Your intelligence indicates that there is currently a level of 'chatter' equal to that which preceded the September 11 attacks," wrote Assistant Attorney General Jay Bybee, in his August 1, 2002 memo. "In light of the information you believe [detainee Abu] Zubaydah has and the high level of threat you believe now exists, you wish to move the interrogations into what you have described as an 'increased pressure phase.'"

So the CIA requests a legal review at a moment of heightened danger, the Justice Department obliges with an exceedingly detailed analysis of the law and interrogation practices -- and, seven years later, Mr. Obama says only the legal advisers who are no longer in government should be investigated. The political convenience of this distinction for Mr. Obama betrays its basic injustice. And by the way, everyone agrees that senior officials, including President Bush, approved these interrogations. Is this President going to put his predecessor in the dock too?

Mr. Obama seemed to understand the peril of such an exercise when he said, before his inauguration, that he wanted to "look forward" and beyond the antiterror debates of the Bush years. As recently as Sunday, Rahm Emanuel said no prosecutions were contemplated and now is not a time for "anger and retribution." Two days later the President disavowed his own chief of staff. Yet nothing had changed except that Mr. Obama's decision last week to release the interrogation memos unleashed a revenge lust on the political left that he refuses to resist.

Just as with the AIG bonuses, he is trying to co-opt his left-wing base by playing to it -- only to encourage it more. Within hours of Mr. Obama's Tuesday comments, Senator Carl Levin piled on with his own accusatory Intelligence Committee report. The demands for a "special counsel" at Justice and a Congressional show trial are louder than ever, and both Europe's left and the U.N. are signaling their desire to file their own charges against former U.S. officials.

Those officials won't be the only ones who suffer if all of this goes forward. Congress will face questions about what the Members knew and when, especially Nancy Pelosi when she was on the House Intelligence Committee in 2002. The Speaker now says she remembers hearing about waterboarding, though not that it would actually be used. Does anyone believe that? Porter Goss, her GOP counterpart at the time, says he knew exactly what he was hearing and that, if anything, Ms. Pelosi worried the CIA wasn't doing enough to stop another attack. By all means, put her under oath.

Mr. Obama may think he can soar above all of this, but he'll soon learn otherwise. The Beltway's political energy will focus more on the spectacle of revenge, and less on his agenda. The CIA will have its reputation smeared, and its agents second-guessing themselves. And if there is another terror attack against Americans, Mr. Obama will have set himself up for the argument that his campaign against the Bush policies is partly to blame.

Above all, the exercise will only embitter Republicans, including the moderates and national-security hawks Mr. Obama may need in the next four years. As patriotic officials who acted in good faith are indicted, smeared, impeached from judgeships or stripped of their academic tenure, the partisan anger and backlash will grow. And speaking of which, when will the GOP Members of Congress begin to denounce this partisan scapegoating? Senior Republicans like Mitch McConnell, Richard Lugar, John McCain, Orrin Hatch, Pat Roberts and Arlen Specter have hardly been profiles in courage.

Mr. Obama is more popular than his policies, due in part to his personal charm and his seeming goodwill. By indulging his party's desire to criminalize policy advice, he has unleashed furies that will haunt his Presidency.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124044375842145565.html
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Apr, 2009 11:56 am
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
Senior Republicans like Mitch McConnell, Richard Lugar, John McCain, Orrin Hatch, Pat Roberts and Arlen Specter have hardly been profiles in courage.


That's what happens when you know people are guilty - you don't defend them. The Ideologues at the WSJ have no real responsibility or consequences of doing so, so they are free to.

Cycloptichorn
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Apr, 2009 11:57 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Baloney.

The WSJ is right though. The Democrats knew full well what those interrogation processes included and Nancy Pelosi, among others, said nothing to stop them. So any investigation will not only serously damage the ability (or willingness) of our national security forces to do their jobs, it would be really ugly as well as set a most unfortunate precedent. And I don't care what wimps on either side of the aisle now say out of political expediency.

Nobody is suggesting that anybody should be subjected to REAL torture; i.e. extreme pain, mutilation, maiming. But if the choice is between making a terrorist frightened or uncomfortable versus dozens, hundreds, or thousands of innocent men, women, and children being injured, maimed, mutlilated, I think it is a no brainer.

If they want to outlaw water boarding fine. I have no problem with that. But I have a HUGE problem with people being investigated and possibly prosecuted for something that was approved for them to do.
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Apr, 2009 11:58 am
@Foxfyre,
Summary: Even if it turns out that people who worked for the previous administration violated the law, they shouldn't be prosecuted. Doing so would smack of a banana republic, and Obama would be to blame for another terrorist attack.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Apr, 2009 12:08 pm
@old europe,
I don't expect anybody who has never been in the position of defending anybody or anything in his life to understand, but it would be no different than giving a soldier a gun, teaching him how to use it, sending him into battle, and then prosecuting him for murder when he shoots somebody.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Thu 23 Apr, 2009 12:09 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
The Democrats knew full well what those interrogation processes included and Nancy Pelosi, among others, said nothing to stop them


Pelosi and others claim that they were not given the full extent of what was going on during their briefings.

Quote:
But if the choice is between making a terrorist frightened or uncomfortable versus dozens, hundreds, or thousands of innocent men, women, and children being injured, maimed, mutlilated, I think it is a no brainer.


Sorry, but it's not a no-brainer. This is what happens when you try and simplify complex moral issues.

Quote:

If they want to outlaw water boarding fine.


Waterboarding is already outlawed, under the international treaties we signed and support.

Quote:
But I have a HUGE problem with people being investigated and possibly prosecuted for something that was approved for them to do.


That's why they aren't going after the CIA people who did the interrogations; they will go after those who approved them. And for good reason: they were approving illegal acts, torturous acts.

The WSJ is not right; they are completely wrong on this issue and will continue to be so as long as they support torture.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Apr, 2009 12:11 pm
Cyclop writes
Quote:
Waterboarding is already outlawed, under the international treaties we signed and support.


Then why did the House vote on a bill to outlaw it in December 2007?
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Apr, 2009 12:13 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Cyclop writes
Quote:
Waterboarding is already outlawed, under the international treaties we signed and support.


Then why did the House vote on a bill to outlaw it in December 2007?



I have no idea. Why does the House vote on lots of stupid stuff?

Cycloptichorn
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Apr, 2009 12:18 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Well at least you acknowledge this is 'stupid stuff'.

But when Madam Speaker Nancy Pelosi and other key Democrats certainly knew of the practice via her position as early as 2001, they were only moved to ban it six years later when it became a political football. She will have a difficult time explaining that if they do initiate an investigation. Right now she probably feels safe though since it will be Democrats doing the investigation.

It is also difficult to think of something as torture that many of our combat troops experience during survival training. Again nobody is condoning or approving real torture that causes extreme pain, injury, maiming, mutilation, etc. This all along has been an issue of whether water boarding constitutes 'torture'. Many believe it does. Many more think it is far less extreme than us not knowing how to prevent the maiming, mutilation, murder of hundreds of innocent U.S. citizens.

Heaven help us if this investigation goes forward and people who were doing their duties as best as they could are prosecuted despite tacit Congressional approval.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  2  
Reply Thu 23 Apr, 2009 12:21 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

I don't expect anybody who has never been in the position of defending anybody or anything in his life to understand, but it would be no different than giving a soldier a gun, teaching him how to use it, sending him into battle, and then prosecuting him for murder when he shoots somebody.


No, Foxfyre.

There's a big difference between self-defense and torture.

The law in modern countries allows for self-defense, and even for killing somebody in self-defense. It does not allow for torturing somebody.

By definition, torture is the exact opposite of self-defense.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Apr, 2009 12:21 pm
@old europe,
Your opinion is noted OE. I don't expect to see the point being made, however.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Thu 23 Apr, 2009 12:27 pm
@old europe,
oe, It's because people like Foxie believe the Bush gang are above both domestic and international laws. Torture is illegal; it is prohibited by our Constitution and the Geneva Convention of which we are participants.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  2  
Reply Thu 23 Apr, 2009 12:27 pm
@Foxfyre,
Don't worry. Your opinion that torture should be permitted, given certain circumstances, is noted as well.
 

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