55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 08:37 am
@georgeob1,
I'm sure that Dr. Williams would not suggest that we are to the absolutist point at this time either, but history and human nature is on his side. Looking down the road to mega-trillion dollar budgets and deficts as social spending and entitlements are pushed to unprecedented heights, I think he is seeing the handwriting on the wall.

The less reward there is for anything or anybody in doing an activity or preserving a tradition or structure, the less incentive there is to do the activity or preserve the tradition or structure. We have seen this phenomenon again and again in tenured and protected structures where there is little or no reward for excellence and little or no consequence for mediocrity, incompetence, minimal productivity. The invariable result is increased mediocrity, incompetence, and reduced productivity. We have seen it in under socialistic communistic systems that fail to reward productivity with the result of decreased productivity and increased poverty for all but a favored few.

When well intended social programs targeting inner city poverty were implemented, the traditional values that promoted wealth--marriage, two parent families, faith, property ownership, work ethic--were ignored while more and more benefit was provided to those who eschewed such values. Absentee fathers, single mothers, renters rather than homeowners, and the unemployed were rewarded while two-parent familes, homeowners, and the employed were not. The result was a nightmare of children born out of wedlock, single parents, rat infested crime ridden projects, poverty, violence, anger, and hopelessness among large chunks of society.

I accept that you dislike that Dr. Williams, in his short essay, leaves out qualifiers that he would almost certainly include in a lecture or longer work. But if you can overlook the obvious exceptions and focus on the point he is making, there is little to quarrel with his statement: ". . . . now that the U.S. Congress has established the principle that one American has a right to live at the expense of another American, it no longer pays to be moral. People who choose to be moral and refuse congressional handouts will find themselves losers. They'll be paying higher and higher taxes to support increasing numbers of those paying lower and lower taxes."

Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 09:50 am
@Foxfyre,
Speaking of qualifiers, before the numbnuts show up to accuse me of all sorts of opinions I hold that I do not hold, I should qualify my remarks to re-emphasize points I have previously made that many single parents can do and do excellent jobs in raising their kids and certainly many people rent, etc. who are exemplary and productive citizens. Also, I have no problem with a safety net for those who are temporarily unemployed though I think there are more creative ways to accomplish that than what is usually the case.

But the fact is that the single most prevalent reason for children living in poverty is the lack of a two-parent family; property ownership is an important factor in generating wealth; and employment is a far more effective way of acquiring prosperity than is the government dole.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 10:31 am
@Foxfyre,
Thanks for clarifying a bit.

But what has owning a home (instead of renting) and faith to do with wealth?

And do you a source that "the single most prevalent reason for children living in poverty is the lack of a two-parent family"?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 10:36 am
@Walter Hinteler,

That can hardly be the case when some 85% to 90% of the world population lives in poverty.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 10:56 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Thanks for clarifying a bit.

But what has owning a home (instead of renting) and faith to do with wealth?

And do you a source that "the single most prevalent reason for children living in poverty is the lack of a two-parent family"?


Home ownership provides stability and a stake in the community plus a sense of permanence providing incentive for improvement and promoting a good quality of life in that community. Religious faith and traditional families have the same kind of effect. Property ownership provides incentive to do what one needs to do to protect, preserve, and improve the property and generally increases the net worth of the property owner as well as that of his/her neighbors.

I have sourced the link between single parenthood and child poverty many many times already. Here it is again. Yes, I know it is the Heritage Foundation but it is the first one I came to and the statistics correlate with everybody else's honestly presented statistics:

http://www.heritage.org/research/welfare/cda01-04.cfm

Walter: Once more the title of this thread is AMERICAN Conservatism in 2008 and beyond. You keep wanting to expand it beyond the American society and culture. When I talk about American Conservatism I am relating to American society and culture unless I designate otherwise.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 11:01 am
@Foxfyre,
Many around the world who own their homes still live in poverty. Your generalities do not make much sense.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 11:02 am
@Foxfyre,
Sorry Walter, I misread CI's post as yours and should have addressed my last line to him instead of you.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 11:18 am
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
I accept that you dislike that Dr. Williams, in his short essay, leaves out qualifiers that he would almost certainly include in a lecture or longer work. But if you can overlook the obvious exceptions and focus on the point he is making, there is little to quarrel with his statement: ".

I think george's point was that Williams completely undermines his argument by leaving out the obvious.

It kind of defeats the purpose of William's writing if we should ignore what he said and instead interpolate, read between the lines, and add a lot of other information so we can fit it into our world view.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 11:38 am
@Foxfyre,
That's a funny study Fox.

The figures don't say that lack of a two parent family is a CAUSE of poverty. It only says that there is a correlation. The highest correlation in the study is between AFDC and poverty. AFDC is given as a result of poverty so to somehow claim AFDC is the CAUSE of poverty is one of the worst uses of statistics I have ever seen.

But if you want to argue that the study is listing CAUSES, then the 4th biggest cause of poverty for children is living in the South.

Correlation does NOT equate to CAUSE.

By the way, the study doesn't support your statement Fox.
Quote:
the single most prevalent reason for children living in poverty is the lack of a two-parent family
According to the Heritage paper, it is welfare dependence that is the MOST prevalent reason.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 11:54 am
Causes of poverty:

Quote:
* Almost half the world " over 3 billion people " live on less than $2.50 a day.
* The GDP (Gross Domestic Product) of the 41 Heavily Indebted Poor Countries (567 million people) is less than the wealth of the world’s 7 richest people combined.
* Nearly a billion people entered the 21st century unable to read a book or sign their names.
* Less than one per cent of what the world spent every year on weapons was needed to put every child into school by the year 2000 and yet it didn’t happen.
* 1 billion children live in poverty (1 in 2 children in the world). 640 million live without adequate shelter, 400 million have no access to safe water, 270 million have no access to health services. 10.6 million died in 2003 before they reached the age of 5 (or roughly 29,000 children per day).


Also:

Quote:
Introduction
Fishing

Occupations such as fishing can be passed down from generation to generation if education is not an option.

There is no single cause of poverty. Poverty is too complex an issue to be the result of just one problem. There are, however, many interrelated factors that contribute to poverty in developing nations.

* Education: Lack of education keeps children from obtaining jobs that would lift them and their families out of poverty. Often, children are kept from school because they are needed at home to support their family with additional income.


* Health: Poor health decreases the amount of work impoverished individuals can do, lowering their income and driving them deeper into poverty.

Slideshow:
Fishing Slideshow: See what fishing is like in poor, rural areas of Southeast Asia.

The onset of disease, such as HIV/AIDS or malaria, can result in death (which can cut off a major source of income for a family), or high medical costs that many impoverished families cannot afford.


* Economics: The poor often have very limited economic choices � they are often prevented from receiving loans and other financial benefits. This makes it hard for them to establish businesses, increase their income, and break out of poverty.


* Government: The governments of many developing countries are often dysfunctional, unstable, and corrupt. Lack of government infrastructure (public sanitation, schools, social welfare, etc.) can be crippling for the poor.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 12:06 pm
@parados,
Conservatives do not recognize a difference between causation and correlation. The majority of their economic arguments rely upon this, so they willfully ignore the inconsistencies.

Cycloptichorn
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 12:07 pm
@parados,
It is very difficult to get AFDC if you are a two-parent family, Parados. I believe an honest review of the history will show that and other well intended initiatives to alleviate poverty is a primary factor in destruction of poor families, especially the black family. It discourages both marriage and the father sticking around. After a generation or two of that, people are conditioned to think fathers aren't necessary and that the welfare state is not only the norm but their right. And the more kids there are, the more welfare they get. It's a viscious circle.

IMO, kids who grow up watching mommy get a government check every month and not doing much else with her life are more likely to be conditioned to think that is the norm and are more likely to be conditioned to planning their life accordingly.

Kids who grow up watching daddy and/or mommy get up in the morning, get cleaned up, go to work, bring home a paycheck, and pay their bills are more likely to be conditioned to think THAT is the norm and they are more likely to plan their lives accordingly.

What the article said:
Quote:
The major underlying factors producing child poverty in the United States are welfare dependence and single parenthood.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 12:20 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Conservatives do not recognize a difference between causation and correlation. The majority of their economic arguments rely upon this, so they willfully ignore the inconsistencies.

Cycloptichorn


Perhaps you would like to reconsider that absurd, self-contradictory and unbounded generalization.

Do you know that all conservatives fail to recognize the difference between causation and correlation? Or is that merely a small sample correlation that you are interpreting as causation?? Wink

parados
 
  2  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 12:22 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
the single most prevalent reason for children living in poverty is the lack of a two-parent family


Quote:
The major underlying factors producing child poverty in the United States are welfare dependence and single parenthood.


I guess we should have realized you didn't really mean what you said.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 12:31 pm
@parados,
Yes I did. Without the welfare dependence, there would be far less single parenthood, and far less child poverty. Even you are capable of connecting those dots, Parados.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 12:50 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Yes I did. Without the welfare dependence, there would be far less single parenthood, and far less child poverty. Even you are capable of connecting those dots, Parados.


Do you think that there's a cultural/continental difference?
[Many if not not most single mothers here earn quite well (though there are certainly some in lower incomes as well).]

Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 01:01 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
I don't know whether there is a cultural/continental difference and that is a good question. One of the links following suggests that the UK is looking at some of the same factors we are though, and it would be interesting to check to see if single parenthood is a factor in child poverty in Germany.

Again I'm focusing on various government initiatives here in the USA and what I conclude are the unintended conseequences of some of those initiatives. And it all ties in with the point that Walter Williams was attempting to make in that essay.

From Minnesota
Quote:
Growth in single-parent families parallels child poverty trend
. . . .The growing number of children living in single-parent families was one reason for the rise in child poverty. Not only are more children living with a single parent, but single-parent families are more likely to be poor than they used to be. Increased poverty among single-parent families may be tied to the growth in childbearing by unmarried women, the report says. . . .
http://www.demography.state.mn.us/resource.html?Id=2272


From Voices for America’s Children
Quote:
While the causes of child poverty are myriad, some dynamics are much easier to identify. First, it is well documented that families matter. Census data indicate that child poverty rates differ according to family structure. For example, children in single parent families have higher poverty rates than those in married-couple families.

Comparing all families, the poverty rate for children in families led by single mothers is 42 percent; single fathers 21 percent, compared to 8 percent of children in married-couple families. From these data, children from homes led by single mothers have higher poverty rates, but the challenge for policymakers is to devise effective work supports for these and other single parent families.
http://www.voices.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=22803


From the USDA:
Quote:
An increase in the number of mother-only families was one of the major changes in family composition during the 1970s, continuing in the 1980s and 1990s, but at a much slower pace. More children today can expect to live in a single-parent family at some point in their lives due to both high rates of divorce and increased out-of-wedlock childbearing. Children in mother-only families have a greater chance of being poor than children living with two parents. Nearly 48 percent of nonmetro children in mother-only families were poor in 2000, in contrast to 10 percent of nonmetro children in two-parent families, who were poor in 2000. Single parent families are often at an economic disadvantage because there is only one parent to generate income and that effort may be limited by difficulties in obtaining child care.
http://www.ers.usda.gov/briefing/IncomePovertyWelfare/ChildPoverty/


More from the Heritage Foundation
Quote:
The Effect of the Decline of Marriage.

As this Report shows, this analysis found that the decline of marriage since the 1960s has been a substantial factor behind the current high levels of child poverty. Specifically, if marriage were restored to 1960s levels:

• The number of children living in single-parent homes would be cut by nearly 60 percent. The number of children living in married couple families would increase by almost 11.5 million, and the number residing in single-parent homes would be reduced by a corresponding amount. These 11.5 million children represent 16.2 percent of all children.

• Among the 11.5 million added children residing in married-couple homes in this scenario, the poverty rate would fall by 80.4 percent. Some 34.2 percent of these children are now poor and live in single-parent homes. If their parents were married to spouses with matching demographic characteristics, only 6.7 percent of these children would remain poor.

• Overall, restoring marriage to 1960 levels would remove more than 3 million children from poverty nationwide. The U.S. child poverty rate would fall by nearly a third, from 15.7 percent to 11.2 percent.

The decline in marriage since the inception of the War on Poverty in the 1960s has clearly contributed to child poverty. Overall, our analysis shows that child poverty would be nearly a third lower today if the traditional two-parent family had not deteriorated over the past three decades.
http://www.heritage.org/research/Family/CDA02-04.cfm


And apparently it isn’t just a US phenomenon either:
From the UK
Quote:
March 2, 2009
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin this week answered a question on why the Government’s policies on reducing child poverty do not include a policy to reduce the number of single-parent families through information, motivation and support for two-parent families.

She stated that the Government’s policies on reducing child poverty cover all children at risk of being in poverty, which includes two-parent as well as single-parent families. As part of this comprehensive approach, we provide targeted support for families who are separating or are at risk of doing so. She also said that the Government announced in December that £5.5million would be available between 2009 and 20011 for new pilots to better coordinate local support for separating parents.
http://nctwatch.wordpress.com/2009/03/02/government-responds-to-question-on-single-parent-families-and-child-poverty/
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 01:05 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Conservatives do not recognize a difference between causation and correlation. The majority of their economic arguments rely upon this, so they willfully ignore the inconsistencies.

Cycloptichorn


Perhaps you would like to reconsider that absurd, self-contradictory and unbounded generalization.

Do you know that all conservatives fail to recognize the difference between causation and correlation? Or is that merely a small sample correlation that you are interpreting as causation?? Wink


Please see such statements as 'cutting taxes raises revenues' for evidence. I would not care to reconsider my statement whatsoever, sir.

The entire supply-side economic school of thought is based in a misunderstanding of correlation and causation.

You will note that I never said Conservatives fail to recognize the difference; I said they choose not to.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 01:08 pm
@parados,
parados, Don't you know the difference between
Quote:
"single most prevalent reason"
and
Quote:
"The major underlying factors?"


It has nothing to do with education, health, and the job market.

LOL
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 01:30 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
One of the links following suggests that the UK is looking at some of the same factors we are though, and it would be interesting to check to see if single parenthood is a factor in child poverty in Germany.


According to an UNICEF report (from February 2005), in Germany "Children in single parent households are by all measures at considerable risk of living in poverty." ... "Our results indicate that single adult households display a relatively high incidence of poverty. However, single adults with children exhibit a significantly higher poverty incidence than their counterparts without kids."
However, in the conclusions they say: "Clearly, our analysis is descriptive. The results neither provide an answer to the question of which events are associated with entering or leaving poverty, nor explain the duration of poverty spells."Source



Data from the UK are quite different to what you say:
Quote:
When research was last conducted five years ago, the majority of children in poverty had parents who were unemployed. The new study shows the majority of children living in poverty now have at least one parent in work, but they are earning so little they are unable to drag their family above the poverty line.

The study, published by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, runs counter to the government's message that work is the best route out of poverty.
Source

Child Poverty in the UK (2004/5 report)


Quote:
[...] Half of all lone parent families are in low income compared to one in five couples with children. Two-fifths all the children in low-income households are in lone parent households.
... ... ...
Most of the lone parents in low income are not working. In contrast, most of the couples with children in low income do have someone in paid work. The net result is that most of the children in low-income households are either in couple families where someone is in paid work or in workless lone parent families.
... ... ...

Source:poverty.org
 

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