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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2009 12:56 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:

Would you agree that if the government can take however much of our 'stuff' that it wants whenver it wants it, we have no wealth?


No, I would not agree with this. Mostly b/c such a situation does not exist anywhere outside of Fascist dictatorships. You are Appealing to Extremes here.

Cycloptichorn
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2009 12:59 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
If you and your ilk get their way or your ideas about 'spreading the wealth' catch on in a major way, don't worry. We'll have that 'extreme' in no time at all. We're fast getting there. The only way that security or freedom or personal wealth is maintained is via constant vigilance in preserving the principles that protect them.

And you know what? When you are caught up in that web you are wishing on the rest of us, I can pretty darn guarantee you that you aren't going to like it.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2009 01:30 pm
@ican711nm,
Using large letters, doesn't make me wrong or you right ican.

You are making up meanings and ignoring parts of the constitution. Nowhere does it state that this phrase is "restricted by the rest of the phrases.
Quote:
To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
Rather it is one of a list of what the Fed govt can do. To imply it is somehow restricted by the rest of the list is to turn it into grammatical nonsense.

It seems you are also ignoring parts of the Federalist papers when you only quote part of paragraphs.
Quote:
If the new Constitution be examined with accuracy and candor, it will be found that the change which it proposes consists much less in the addition of NEW POWERS to the Union, than in the invigoration of its ORIGINAL POWERS. The regulation of commerce, it is true, is a new power; but that seems to be an addition which few oppose, and from which no apprehensions are entertained.
...
The change relating to taxation may be regarded as the most important; and yet the present Congress have as complete authority to REQUIRE of the States indefinite supplies of money for the common defense and general welfare, as the future Congress will have to require them of individual citizens; and the latter will be no more bound than the States themselves have been, to pay the quotas respectively taxed on them.


Wait.. did that just say that future Congresses could tax individual citizens? I think it did. So much for your taxation claims ican.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2009 01:35 pm
One of my rights to liberty I want secured is my liberty to own, hold, or sell property I lawfully earned.

I don't own, hold, or sell much property. But I sure hope that everyone, who owns more as well as less property than I that he or she earned, has their liberty secured to own, hold, and sell that property AND earn more such property.

I'm convinced that my security depends on the security of my fellow Americans. When anyone loses that security, mine is at greater risk of being lost also.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2009 01:36 pm
@Foxfyre,
How many times do we need to repeat ourselves? It's not about "spreading the wealth." It is about helping the "general welfare" of our citizens. It's also not about transferring wealth to the poor; it's about paying for what we spend in the current budget, and not transfer deficits to our children and grandchildren.

Repeating misinformation about taxation is based on ignorance. Do you understand the meaning of a "balanced budget?"



Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2009 01:42 pm
@parados,
Did you miss the sentence in your quoted excerpt:
". . .and the latter (individual citizens) will be no more bound than the States themselves have been, to pay the quotas respectively taxed on them."

I suggest that you read the whole document and you will get a much better sense of what is being said there. Our Founders wrote in a language of their time and culture that makes it a bit difficult reading for ours, but they did not obfusicate their meaning.

Obfusication seems to be the way of big government and its disciples these days.

Quote:
Transparent Obfuscation
A Rescue Plan With the Clarity of a Credit Default Swap

By Michael Kinsley
Friday, March 27, 2009; Page A17

"The parties may elect in respect of two or more Transactions that a net amount will be determined in respect of all amounts payable on the same date in the same currency in respect of such Transactions, regardless of whether such amounts are payable in respect of the same Transaction."

Got that? It's a sentence, chosen more or less at random, from the most recent (2002) Master Agreement of the International Swap and Derivatives Association. These are the people who brought you the "credit default swap," the mysterious financial transaction that almost destroyed the world, and might yet do so if the Obama administration's rescue plan doesn't work. The Master Agreement is used for credit default swaps the way a standard real estate broker's lease is used for renting a one-bedroom apartment.

Except that we all know what a one-bedroom apartment is. How many of us know what a credit-default swap is? The media do their best to explain it, often using attractive drawings with arrows showing money going hither and thither. Or sometimes they throw up their hands, as I'm doing, and simply describe them as "exotic financial instruments," and leave it at that. Part of the hostility that banks and Wall Street now enjoy comes from a popular suspicion that the mystery and complexity are part of the point -- that these things are made impossible to explain on purpose, as a way of avoiding scrutiny. "Don't criticize what you can't understand," as the financier Bob Dylan once put it in another context.

One problem with the Obama financial rescue plan is that it is almost as complicated and obscure as the problem it is designed to solve. Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner, testifying yesterday on Capitol Hill, called for greater simplicity in financial regulation. Good luck with that. Here is a sample passage from one of the explanatory documents released by Treasury this week. "Private investors may be given voluntary withdrawal rights at the level of a Private Vehicle, subject to limitations to be agreed with Treasury including that no private investor may have the right to voluntarily withdraw from a Private Vehicle prior to the third anniversary of the first investment by such Private Vehicle." All this talk of getting into and out of private vehicles may be a sly reference to the car and driver that did in Tom Daschle. Otherwise, who knows?
MORE HERE: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/26/AR2009032603113.html
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2009 01:46 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I didn't coin the phrase 'spread the wealth' CI. Obama did. And we aren't talking about balancing the budget or at least he sure isn't. He is talking about 'spreading the wealth' by taking it from those who have it and giving it to those who don't. If you think that is the moral path to take, then fine. You don't believe in natural rights, God given rights, freedom, security, or principles of property as John Locke and Adam Smith saw it. The only taxes under discussion right now relate to that. If you don't agree that the government should be able to take away our freedom, security, or property at will, your quarrel isn't with me. It's with him.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2009 01:54 pm
@parados,
Quote:

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed45.asp
Madison No. 45
The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected.

The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State.

Quote:

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed41.asp
Madison No. 41
Some, who have not denied the necessity of the power of taxation, have grounded a very fierce attack against the Constitution, on the language in which it is defined. It has been urged and echoed, that the power "to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, to pay the debts, and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States,'' amounts to an unlimited commission to exercise every power which may be alleged to be necessary for the common defense or general welfare. No stronger proof could be given of the distress under which these writers labor for objections, than their stooping to such a misconstruction. Had no other enumeration or definition of the powers of the Congress been found in the Constitution, than the general expressions just cited, the authors of the objection might have had some color for it; though it would have been difficult to find a reason for so awkward a form of describing an authority to legislate in all possible cases. A power to destroy the freedom of the press, the trial by jury, or even to regulate the course of descents, or the forms of conveyances, must be very singularly expressed by the terms to raise money for the general welfare.

But what color can the objection have, when a specification of the objects alluded to by these general terms immediately follows, and is not even separated by a longer pause than a semicolon? If the different parts of the same instrument ought to be so expounded, as to give meaning to every part which will bear it, shall one part of the same sentence be excluded altogether from a share in the meaning; and shall the more doubtful and indefinite terms be retained in their full extent, and the clear and precise expressions be denied any signification whatsoever? For what purpose could the enumeration of particular powers be inserted, if these and all others were meant to be included in the preceding general power? Nothing is more natural nor common than first to use a general phrase, and then to explain and qualify it by a recital of particulars.

NOW, one more time with sufficient emphasis to enable a rational person to understand that the general powers cited in the first part of the sentence of Article I. Section 8. are limited to the specific powers cited in the second part of the same sentence of Article I. Section 8.

Quote:
For what purpose could the enumeration of particular powers be inserted, if these and all others were meant to be included in the preceding general power? Nothing is more natural nor common than first to use a general phrase, and then to explain and qualify it by a recital of particulars

0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2009 01:55 pm
@Foxfyre,
Obama did not coin the words "spread the wealth." Try again.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2009 01:57 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxie wrote:
Quote:
He is talking about 'spreading the wealth' by taking it from those who have it and giving it to those who don't.


Your saying it doesn't make it true; show us how he's accomplishing this amazing task?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2009 01:57 pm
This bears repeating since Parados incorrectly used the first part of the excerpt to illustrate his point while omitting the qualifying sentence:

Quote:
It has been urged and echoed, that the power "to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, to pay the debts, and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States,'' amounts to an unlimited commission to exercise every power which may be alleged to be necessary for the common defense or general welfare. No stronger proof could be given of the distress under which these writers labor for objections, than their stooping to such a misconstruction.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2009 02:01 pm
@Foxfyre,
Where's the "misconstruction?"
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2009 02:01 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

I didn't coin the phrase 'spread the wealth' CI. Obama did. And we aren't talking about balancing the budget or at least he sure isn't. He is talking about 'spreading the wealth' by taking it from those who have it and giving it to those who don't. If you think that is the moral path to take, then fine. You don't believe in natural rights, God given rights, freedom, security, or principles of property as John Locke and Adam Smith saw it. The only taxes under discussion right now relate to that. If you don't agree that the government should be able to take away our freedom, security, or property at will, your quarrel isn't with me. It's with him.


You seem angry today, Fox.

Obama didn't coin the term 'spread the wealth,' btw.

The problem you guys have with Obama, is that he wants to change the balance of how much is taken from whom. It is a given that monies are taken from all of us and given to others; that is the very definition of taxation. You are being a little extreme here; Obama isn't talking about our new, shiny Socialist Republic. He's talking about making the wealthy pay slightly more taxes then they currently do, and far less than the average amount they paid over the last century. P

Cycloptichorn
parados
 
  2  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2009 02:03 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
Had the States complied punctually with the articles of Confederation, or could their compliance have been enforced by as peaceable means as may be used with success towards single persons, our past experience is very far from countenancing an opinion, that the State governments would have lost their constitutional powers, and have gradually undergone an entire consolidation.

And maybe you should follow your own advice Fox and read the rest of the paragraph.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2009 02:08 pm
@Foxfyre,
And maybe you should read what that objection really was Fox.
Quote:
the authors of the objection might have had some color for it; though it would have been difficult to find a reason for so awkward a form of describing an authority to legislate in all possible cases. A power to destroy the freedom of the press, the trial by jury, or even to regulate the course of descents, or the forms of conveyances, must be very singularly expressed by the terms "to raise money for the general welfare

I have not stated that the "general welfare" clause allows for the destruction of rights clearly given in the constitution.

It seems to be you laboring under a misconstruction Fox.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2009 02:14 pm
Sorry Parados. You're sliding on shifting sands here again and, while you again appear to be drawing wrong conclusions from the additional text you quoted, I choose not to be diverted from that. You got caught intentionally or unintentionally using and distorting a partial quote as evidence for your point of view. You can acknowledge that or not. But I'm not interested in changing the subject right now to avoid that issue.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2009 02:19 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
I'm not at all angry Cyclop. But the ignorance of basic fundamental principles demonstrated by some on the Left is positively mind boggling.

The term 'spread the wealth' didn't make it into the current national conversation until Obama used it with Joe the Plumber. Ergo, he coined the phrase in the national debate. And it was a short and graphic metaphor to use to differentiate between MAC economics and Obama economics so it caught on.

And anybody who has NOT drunk the kool-ade and who does not grovel at the feet of the audacity of smoke and mirrors economics and wildly speculative hope knows that there is no such thing as 'slightly more' when you're talking about increasing budgets and deficits in the trillions of dollars.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2009 02:22 pm
@Foxfyre,
What did I draw a wrong conclusion about?

It quite clearly states that a "indefinite" amount of money can be raised from taxation. I only pointed out that the money could be raised from individuals as an aside. As to the amount of taxation, I let the Fed papers speak for themselves.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2009 02:24 pm
@parados,
Fine Parados. You go right ahead and believe that. You won't mind if the rest of us go with what the Founders actually said though, okay?
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2009 02:25 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:

The term 'spread the wealth' didn't make it into the current national conversation until Obama used it with Joe the Plumber. Ergo, he coined the phrase in the national debate.


Bull. Republicans have been using that term for years. C'mon now.

'slightly more' refers to the level of taxation the rich will experience. Your opinion of the fairness of that doesn't change the fact that this is what we are talking about.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
 

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