AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

@cicerone imposter,

Then perhaps you would be so kind as to post a similar study, one more recent then Ican's.

@cicerone imposter,

Cicerone, you alleged that: "... dated September of 2004; it doesn't prove anything based on today's poverty rates." Please provide your evidence that supports this allegation. Otherwise, your allegation doesn't prove anything about today's poverty rates and distributions not being comparable to 2004 poverty rates..

Since the Democrats obtained a majority in both houses of Congress, they have successfully blocked Bush administration efforts to rectify the problems with the 2FMs and the CRA. Consequently the poverty rates and distributions since then may have been increasing and may not be comparable to the 2004 poverty rates and distributions. I'll just have to wait and see what you come up with.

1 Reply

THE BRITISH CONSTITUTION AND ITS AUTHORIZATION OF THE CONCENTRATION OF POWER

Quote:

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/british_constitution1.htm
A constitution is a set of laws on how a country is governed. The British Constitution is unwritten in one single document, unlike the constitution in America or the proposed European Constitution, and as such, is referred to as an uncodified constitution in the sense that there is no single document that can be classed as Britain's constitution. The British Constitution can be found in a variety of documents. Supporters of our constitution believe that the current way allows for flexibility and change to occur without too many problems. Those who want a written constitution believe that it should be codified so that the public as a whole has access to it " as opposed to just constitutional experts who know where to look and how to interpret it.

Amendments to Britain’s unwritten constitution are made the same way " by a simply majority support in both Houses of Parliament to be followed by the Royal Assent.

The British Constitution comes from a variety of sources. The main ones are:

Statutes such as the Magna Carta of 1215 and the Act of Settlement of 1701.
Laws and Customs of Parliament; political conventions
Case law; constitutional matters decided in a court of law
Constitutional experts who have written on the subject such as Walter Bagehot and A.V Dicey.

There are two basic principles to the British Constitution:
The Rule of Law;
The Supremacy of Parliament.

I think the British Constitution does not fit the definition of Constitutionalism that I posted, because it requires ONLY constitutional matters decided in a court of law, or The Supremacy of the Parliament and Royal Assent to pass amendments to it.

Constitutionalism as my dictionary defines it says "concentration of power is prevented by various checks and balances." Clearly, the British Constitution's authorization of constitutional matters decided in a court of law, or The Supremacy of the Parliament and Royal Assent is an authorization of the concentration power that Constitutionalism seeks to prohibit and/or eliminate.

According to the British Constitution, constitutional matters decided in a court of law, or a simple majority of the British Parliament plus Royal Assent have the power to lawfully establish a socialist government. Whereas in the USA, the lawful establishment of a socialist government would require not only a 2/3rds majority of Congress, but also 3/4trs of the state legislatures agreeing to an amendment permitting it.

If you disagree, please tell me why.

Quote:

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/

CONSTITUTIONALISM

Quote:

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=constitutionalism&x=30&y=9
Main Entry: con•sti•tu•tion•al•ism Pronunciation Guide
Pronunciation: -n l iz m, -n liz m
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): -s
1 : the doctrine or system of government in which the governing power is limited by enforceable rules of law and concentration of power is prevented by various checks and balances so that the basic rights of individuals and groups are protected
2 : adherence to the principles of constitutionalism

SOCIALISM

Quote:

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=socialism&x=26&y=8
Main Entry: so•cial•ism Pronunciation Guide
Pronunciation: s sh liz m
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): -s
1 : any of various theories or social and political movements advocating or aiming at collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and control of the distribution of goods: as a : FOURIERISM b : GUILD SOCIALISM c : MARXISM d : OWENISM
2 a : a system or condition of society or group living in which there is no private property <trace the remains of pure socialism that marked the first phase of the Christian community -- W.E.H.Lecky> -- compare INDIVIDUALISM
b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state -- compare CAPITALISM, LIBERALISM c : a stage of society that in Marxist theory is transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and payments to individuals according to their work.

2 Replies

@ican711nm,

ican711nm wrote:

According to the British Constitution, constitutional matters decided in a court of law, or a simple majority of the British Parliament plus Royal Assent have the power to lawfully establish a socialist government.

The now (still) governing Socialists were elected, with the majority of parliamentary votes. And those MPs were elected in General Elections.

It's the people who decide in the UK who's governing.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter, I understand that members of the British Parliament are elected by the people. Nonetheless, the lawfully elected members of Parliament collectively represent a concentration of power that is antagonistic to the definition of Constitutionalism that I posted. Whereas in the USA, the lawfully elected members of Congress, and the federal judges whose appointments they approve do not now have the power to lawfully establish "collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and control of the distribution of goods."

Such power can be granted to the Congress and federal judges ONLY in the lawful, ways specified by Article V of the USA Constitution:

Quote:

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html
Article V
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose amendments to this Constitution, or, on the application of the legislatures of two thirds of the several states, shall call a convention for proposing amendments, which, in either case, shall be valid to all intents and purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the legislatures of three fourths of the several states, or by conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other mode of ratification may be proposed by the Congress; provided that no amendment which may be made prior to the year one thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any manner affect the first and fourth clauses in the ninth section of the first article; and that no state, without its consent, shall be deprived of its equal suffrage in the Senate.

CONSTITUTIONALISM

Quote:

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=constitutionalism&x=30&y=9
Main Entry: con•sti•tu•tion•al•ism Pronunciation Guide
Pronunciation: -n l iz m, -n liz m
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): -s
1 : the doctrine or system of government in which the governing power is limited by enforceable rules of law and concentration of power is prevented by various checks and balances so that the basic rights of individuals and groups are protected
2 : adherence to the principles of constitutionalism

SOCIALISM

Quote:

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=socialism&x=26&y=8
Main Entry: so•cial•ism Pronunciation Guide
Pronunciation: s sh liz m
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): -s
1 : any of various theories or social and political movements advocating or aiming at collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and control of the distribution of goods: as a : FOURIERISM b : GUILD SOCIALISM c : MARXISM d : OWENISM
2 a : a system or condition of society or group living in which there is no private property <trace the remains of pure socialism that marked the first phase of the Christian community -- W.E.H.Lecky> -- compare INDIVIDUALISM
b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state -- compare CAPITALISM, LIBERALISM c : a stage of society that in Marxist theory is transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and payments to individuals according to their work

That is why I say the British Constitutional Monarchy does not comply with the definition of Constitutionalism that I posted, and the USA Constitutional Republic does comply.

1 Reply

@ican711nm,

Ican't, the legal beagle. What a joke you are.

1 Reply

@mysteryman,

Why should I? I just made people aware that ican's post was overly outdated info. If you want current info, you can do that, you know. I'm not your gofer.
Please remember that in the future. Thx.

1 Reply

@ican711nm,

Okay, but it sounds rather simple to use a definition, which only is correct for one constitution in one single country and make this definition universal.

(In the consequence, your definition would mean that at least five elected governments and more than one political party in the UK were/are unconstitutional.)

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

But when you say something is outdated and irrelevant, it falls upon you to then provide more relevant info.
If you cannot or will not, then what you have said is strictly your opinion and worthless to the discussion.

0 Replies

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Okay, but it sounds rather simple to use a definition, which only is correct for one constitution in one single country and make this definition universal.

(In the consequence, your definition would mean that at least five elected governments and more than one political party in the UK were/are unconstitutional.)

No. The way I understood it, it would mean that the UK government is different from the definition of constitutionalism that Ican posted. That is a different thing than saying that the UK government is unconstitutional. It is a way of explaining how the US government is constitutional, according to that definition, in a way that the UK government, because of its structure, is not. The UK government can assume powers that are not constitutionally available to the US government IF those in the US government follow the constitution.

The whole thrust of this line of discussion was whether those in the US government are following our Constitution, and, it more and more appears that they are overstepping the intent and perhaps the letter of the Constitution.

1 Reply

@Foxfyre,

All generalities that has no meaning about constitutionality. Show us by comparison between the UK and US constitution what you mean?

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

Ican already did in quite some detail. But since you don't read his posts, you probably missed it. I won't repeat the good work he has already done however.

1 Reply

@ican711nm,

Quote:

Poverty in the United States
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article may need to be updated. Please update this article to reflect recent events or newly available information, and remove this template when finished. Please see the talk page for more information.

The most common measure of poverty in the United States is the "poverty line" set by the U.S. government. This measure recognizes poverty as a lack of those goods and services commonly taken for granted by members of mainstream society.[1] The official threshold is adjusted for inflation using the consumer price index. Poverty in the United States is cyclical in nature with roughly 12% to 17% living below the federal poverty line at any given point in time, and roughly 40% falling below the poverty line at some point within a 10 year time span.[2] Most Americans (58.5%) will spend at least one year below the poverty line at some point between ages 25 and 75.[3] There remains some controversy over whether the official poverty threshold over- or understates poverty.

In general the United States has some of the highest relative poverty rates among industrialized countries, reflecting both the high median income and high degree of inequality.[4] In terms of pre-transfer absolute poverty rates, in 2000 the United States ranked tenth among sixteen developed countries, though it should be noted that 2000 was a 'trough' year and subsequently absolute poverty rates have increased.[5]. The US does considerably worse in post-transfer absolute poverty rates.[6]

Those under the age of 18 were the most likely to be impoverished. In 2006, the poverty rate for minors in the United States was the highest in the industrialized world, with 21.9% of all minors and 30% of African American minors living below the poverty threshold.[7] Moreover, the standard of living for those in the bottom 10% was lower in the U.S. than other developed nations except the United Kingdom, which has the lowest standard of living for impoverished children in the developed world.[8] According to a 2008 report released by the Carsey Institute at the University of New Hampshire, on average, rates of child poverty are persistently higher in rural parts of the country relative to suburban areas and share similar rates with many central cities.[9][10]

This explains why population growth has meaning in measuring poverty:

http://s.wsj.net/media/poverty_cs_20080826113720.jpg

1 Reply

@JTT,

JTT wrote:

Ican't, the legal beagle. What a joke you are.

To establish that you are not a "joke:"
(1) Quote a statement or statements that I posted that you think are false;
(2) Provide evidence that this statement or these statements are false;

0 Replies

@Foxfyre,

Ican's detail is nothing but his opinion.

First of all. Socialism is NOT prevented by the US constitution as much as he wants to believe it is. The power to legislate by the US government is restricted but most of the restrictions are based on what it is clearly prevented from doing. The phrase "general welfare" is very vague and Congress is allowed to pass any legislation that contributes to the "general welfare". You and I can disagree on what the phrase means but Congress and the Courts get to decide. The Courts tend to defer to Congress unless it is specifically banned under the Constitution. Ican can have his opinion and I can have mine but the courts and Congress tend to disagree with Ican's.

2 Replies

@parados,

parados, They are missing the whole definition of "socialism." Our government will never take over the economic productive capacity of our country. How our government provides for its citizens (schools, infrastructure, health plans, transportation, etc.) has nothing to do with how our economy works. All they need to do is look at many countries of Europe, South America, and some parts of Asia, to see that they provide all these common benefits, but their economy remains capitalistic in every shape and form.

0 Replies

@parados,

Quote:

Ican can have his opinion and I can have mine but the courts and Congress tend to disagree with Ican's.

This happens a lot, I've noticed!

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

@cicerone imposter,

But Ican was not talking numbers or population or whatever. He was describing what poverty looks like in the USA and that is what you took exception to. And you have provided nothing to dispute that despite the fact that the article was written in 2004.

What Ican's article illustrated was that almost all of the poor in this country are filthy rich when compared to the poor in almost all other countries. And it is a safe bet that nobody will be able to show that has significantly changed in the last four years.

1 Reply

@Foxfyre,

Haha, Fox.

Part of the problem you and Ican and others have, is the mistaken concept that stuff is a sign of wealth. It is not. The best sign of wealth is security, and none of his stats show any of that at all.

I think it's quite revealing that you also share this belief; it says a lot about the two of you.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

The establishment of socialism in the USA would be unconstitutional--illegal, unlawful, crooked, gangsterism--if the Constitution of the USA were not first amended to grant Congress and the President the power to establish socialism.

CONSTITUTIONALISM

Quote:

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=constitutionalism&x=30&y=9
Main Entry: con•sti•tu•tion•al•ism Pronunciation Guide
Pronunciation: -n l iz m, -n liz m
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): -s
1 : the doctrine or system of government in which the governing power is limited by enforceable rules of law and concentration of power is prevented by various checks and balances so that the basic rights of individuals and groups are protected2 : adherence to the principles of constitutionalism

SOCIALISM

Quote:

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=socialism&x=26&y=8
Main Entry: so•cial•ism Pronunciation Guide
Pronunciation: s sh liz m
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): -s
1 : any of various theories or social and political movements advocating or aiming at collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and control of the distribution of goods: as a : FOURIERISM b : GUILD SOCIALISM c : MARXISM d : OWENISM
2 a : a system or condition of society or group living in which there is no private property <trace the remains of pure socialism that marked the first phase of the Christian community -- W.E.H.Lecky> -- compare INDIVIDUALISM
b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state -- compare CAPITALISM, LIBERALISM c : a stage of society that in Marxist theory is transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and payments to individuals according to their work.

If you disagree, then show wherein the Constitution of the USA, the Congress and the President are granted the power to establish socialism.

http://www.archives.gov/national-archives-experience/charters/declaration_transcript.html
THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/usconst.htm
THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/federal/fed.htm
THE FEDERALIST PAPERS

1 Reply

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

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