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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 06:06 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Not only the public, but many companies are also interested.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 06:23 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

We'll see. I think when the people find out what it will cost them, Obama won't be enjoying anywhere nearly as much support for his healthcare plan.


But, won't they be relieved of quite a bit of money they are currently paying for Health Care, much of it of questionable quality as it is? You don't seem to be factoring this end of the equation in.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  2  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 06:30 pm
The thing you conservatives don't understand is that 99 % of Dems are capitalists. I am one. However, we are intelligent enough to recognize that, in certain cases, govt. has a critical role. For instance, our present completely private healthcare system doesn't work, and is ruining the country. Every other developed country understands this, and has universal healthcare. Moreover, the people in those countries have longer life spans, and their healthcare cost is a fraction of ours. Duh, isn't this kind of obvious.

Also, privatizing the post office would be a disaster. Costs would soar, and service would plummet. For instance, many areas would not get mail service, or would get it at a prohibited cost. Further, private transportation systems generally do not work. The IRS outsourced some processing and collection, and it was a disaster, with double the costs and lagging performance.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 07:25 pm
@Advocate,
Advocate, We all know that the conservatives are using the word "socialism" that disregards the definition. Until they understand the words they are using, it's useless trying to have a discussion.

We are still a capitalistic society where the majority of our workers work for capitalistic companies. They'll never be able to refute that very simple fact.

It's funny how they continue to infer about Obama's first two months in office trying to help us recover from this financial crisis, and all they can do is use the word "socialism" as their battle cry. Never mind that Bush increased our government to its current levels, and they never used that word.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 07:28 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Why did George Bush increase government spending 50% in seven years?
He went from a 2 trillion dollar national budget to a 3.1 trillion dollar budget in seven short years.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 07:33 pm
@cicerone imposter,
From the Committee of Government Oversight:

Quote:
Monday, June 19, 2006
Administration Oversight
Dollars, Not Sense: Government Contracting Under the Bush Administration
Dollars, Not Sense
Links & Resources

* Full Report: Dollars, Not Sense
* Highlights: New Findings
* Searchable Database of Problem Contracts

Under the Bush Administration, the “shadow government” of private companies working under federal contract has exploded in size. Between 2000 and 2005, procurement spending increased by over $175 billion dollars, making federal contracts the fastest growing component of federal discretionary spending.

This growth in federal procurement has enriched private contractors. But it has also come at a steep cost for federal taxpayers. Overcharging has been frequent, and billions of dollars of taxpayer money have been squandered.

At the request of Rep. Henry A. Waxman, this report is the first comprehensive assessment of federal contracting under the Bush Administration. The report reaches three primary conclusions:

* Procurement Spending Is Accelerating Rapidly. Between 2000 and 2005, procurement spending rose by 86% to $377.5 billion annually. Spending on federal contracts grew over twice as fast as other discretionary federal spending. Under President Bush, the federal government is now spending nearly 40 cents of every discretionary dollar on contracts with private companies, a record level.
* Contract Mismanagement Is Widespread. The growth in federal contracts has been accompanied by pervasive mismanagement. Mistakes have been made in virtually every step of the contracting process: from pre-contract planning through contract award and oversight to recovery of contract overcharges.
* The Costs to the Taxpayer Are Enormous. The report identifies 118 federal contracts worth $745.5 billion that have been found by government officials to include significant waste, fraud, abuse, or mismanagement. Each of the Bush Administration’s three signature initiatives " homeland security, the war and reconstruction in Iraq, and Hurricane Katrina recovery " has been characterized by wasteful contract spending.
[/b]

It's funny how conservatives are so quick to criticize the current administration when their own went on a spending spree that were found to have "significant waste, fraud, abuse, or mismanagement."

Where was their contempt then?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 08:00 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
The fastest growing contractor under the Bush Administration has been Halliburton. Federal spending on Halliburton contracts increased over 600% between 2000 and 2005.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  2  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 08:31 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

We'll see. I think when the people find out what it will cost them, Obama won't be enjoying anywhere nearly as much support for his healthcare plan.

When they looked at how much it already costs, and how little they get, people became open to new ideas.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 09:27 pm
@old europe,
old europe wrote:
An objective discussion of policies of an elected government is therefore helpful, and so is a willingness to criticise even an administration that one essentially supports. Hyperbole and shrillness by supporters of the opposition as well as unwarranted comparisons to the Hitler or Stalin will probably not help.

If somebody is demonizing capitalism and wealth, and using some of the same political tactics, I don't think it is necessarily that extreme to mention the pitfalls of the past, oe. And you claim Republicans have used some of the same language, fine, but do they have friends like William Ayers, Reverend Wright, etc., and used the political methods of Saul Alinsky? Call it shrillness if you wish, but if you did not sympathize with alot of those socialistic and Marxist values, you would probably tend to agree with me, I think.

I am not going to apologize for being suspicious of Marxist sympathizers and socialists.
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 09:47 pm
@okie,
You are as bad as any of the people you mentioned. You and other conservatives constantly lie, distort the facts, send out hoax e-mails, slander, and libel. I don't see libs doing that. There may be a very, very, tiny number of extremists on the left who are the exceptions who proved the rule.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 09:50 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:

old europe wrote:
An objective discussion of policies of an elected government is therefore helpful, and so is a willingness to criticise even an administration that one essentially supports. Hyperbole and shrillness by supporters of the opposition as well as unwarranted comparisons to the Hitler or Stalin will probably not help.

If somebody is demonizing capitalism and wealth, and using some of the same political tactics, I don't think it is necessarily that extreme to mention the pitfalls of the past, oe. And you claim Republicans have used some of the same language, fine, but do they have friends like William Ayers, Reverend Wright, etc., and used the political methods of Saul Alinsky? Call it shrillness if you wish, but if you did not sympathize with alot of those socialistic and Marxist values, you would probably tend to agree with me, I think.

I am not going to apologize for being suspicious of Marxist sympathizers and socialists.


I guess I should mention, the political tactics of Hitler and Stalin were to murder people who disagreed with them.

Seen a whole bunch of that going on lately? No? Maybe dial it back a little bit then, mkay?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 10:04 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:
If somebody is demonizing capitalism and wealth, and using some of the same political tactics, I don't think it is necessarily that extreme to mention the pitfalls of the past, oe.


If somebody would be doing that, you would have a point.

However, Obama has not been demonizing capitalism. Obama has not been demonizing wealth. On those grounds, the comparison is completely baseless.

Your comparison might be warranted once he actually starts doing what you accuse him of doing. Until then, it's merely obnoxious.


okie wrote:
And you claim Republicans have used some of the same language, fine, but do they have friends like William Ayers, Reverend Wright, etc., and used the political methods of Saul Alinsky?


I know you like to play this guilt by association game, but, again, until Obama doesn't actually do any of the things you accuse him of, you have no case.


okie wrote:
Call it shrillness if you wish, but if you did not sympathize with alot of those socialistic and Marxist values, you would probably tend to agree with me, I think.


And if you did not sympathize with a lot of those fascist values, you would probably tend to agree with me.

Now, isn't this name-calling a fun game?


okie wrote:
I am not going to apologize for being suspicious of Marxist sympathizers and socialists.


You have not shown that Obama is a "Marxist sympathizer". You have not shown that Obama is a "socialist".

All your evidence so far is based on guilt by association.

You have no case.
okie
 
  0  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 10:11 pm
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:

You are as bad as any of the people you mentioned. You and other conservatives constantly lie, distort the facts, send out hoax e-mails, slander, and libel. I don't see libs doing that. There may be a very, very, tiny number of extremists on the left who are the exceptions who proved the rule.

You don't see libs accusing Bush for the last 8 years of murdering people by the hundreds of thousands, taking away our rights, the list goes on? Bush was even behind the towers being brought down, I guess you don't remember the accusations? Where have you been? Bush was a Nazi, blah blah blah. Some of my comments about lefties are in direct response to that. I am simply pointing out my opinion that the left is where the most potential lies, in terms of us losing our freedoms and abusing citizens. Leftist ideologies require more force to maintain, just a fact of life.

To be clear, I have never said Obama or anyone else was like Hitler, but I have suggested that instead of Hitler being a right wind extremist as has been suggested, he was instead a leftie. I am simply pointing out my opinion as to where some of the most notorious historical figures are located in terms of their politics, and therefore the politics that could potentially produce another bad apple. I sincerely believe that we need to preserve the rights of American citizens to prevent such a thing happening. And I totally believe that a conservative government is our best hope of doing that.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 10:15 pm
@old europe,
old europe wrote:

However, Obama has not been demonizing capitalism. Obama has not been demonizing wealth. On those grounds, the comparison is completely baseless.

Your comparison might be warranted once he actually starts doing what you accuse him of doing. Until then, it's merely obnoxious.
.....
Now, isn't this name-calling a fun game?

...
You have no case.


It appears to me that you too are overstating your case a bit. A little name-calling too.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 10:19 pm
@old europe,
old europe wrote:

okie wrote:
If somebody is demonizing capitalism and wealth, and using some of the same political tactics, I don't think it is necessarily that extreme to mention the pitfalls of the past, oe.


If somebody would be doing that, you would have a point.

However, Obama has not been demonizing capitalism. Obama has not been demonizing wealth. On those grounds, the comparison is completely baseless.



I disagree, I believe he has been. You apparently do not understand American politics, oe, nor do you understand America. So since you are wrong, my comparison is therefore not baseless at all, it is totally valid.

Obama did not have millions chanting "change" over nothing. He has not spelled it all out, we have to guess at some of it, until it becomes more clear, but it is obvious Obama neither understands or sympathizes with businesses.

To understand more about what I think Obama believes, just listen to some of the rants of the Reverend Wright, and you will begin to get the picture. Otherwise, all you get out of Obama are platitudes and vagueries.
Diest TKO
 
  2  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 10:35 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:

old europe wrote:

okie wrote:
If somebody is demonizing capitalism and wealth, and using some of the same political tactics, I don't think it is necessarily that extreme to mention the pitfalls of the past, oe.


If somebody would be doing that, you would have a point.

However, Obama has not been demonizing capitalism. Obama has not been demonizing wealth. On those grounds, the comparison is completely baseless.



I disagree, I believe he has been. You apparently do not understand American politics, oe, nor do you understand America. So since you are wrong, my comparison is therefore not baseless at all, it is totally valid.

You disagreeing, doesn't make OE wrong okie. OE makes a very valid point, Obama hasn't deionized capitalism nor wealth. A fact, you opinion make not.
okie wrote:

Obama did not have millions chanting "change" over nothing. He has not spelled it all out, we have to guess at some of it, until it becomes more clear, but it is obvious Obama neither understands or sympathizes with businesses.

Bruhaha.

Obama is just starting to use the Omnibus stimulus monies, and it's pretty clearly laid out. Obama is working to help the country, not destroy it. You should put more marbles in your mouth and fewer words in his.
okie wrote:

To understand more about what I think Obama believes, just listen to some of the rants of the Reverend Wright, and you will begin to get the picture. Otherwise, all you get out of Obama are platitudes and vagueries.

This is a serious character flaw in you Okie.
K
O
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  3  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 11:32 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:
I disagree, I believe he has been.


Post a link or it didn't happen.


okie wrote:
You apparently do not understand American politics, oe, nor do you understand America.


Well, you apparently do not understand the politics of the Third Reich, nor do you understand the context of the Weimar Republic. That hasn't stopped you from claiming that Hitler was a socialist.

I guess we're even.


okie wrote:
So since you are wrong, my comparison is therefore not baseless at all, it is totally valid.


Well, since you are wrong, too, your comparison is doubleplus-baseless, and utterly invalid.


okie wrote:
Obama did not have millions chanting "change" over nothing.


True. They were probably fed up with the failed politics of the last 8 years.


okie wrote:
He has not spelled it all out, we have to guess at some of it,


Translation: he has never actually said what you claim he has said, so you simply have to make **** up.


okie wrote:
until it becomes more clear, but it is obvious Obama neither understands or sympathizes with businesses.


And it is obvious because you say so. Your opinion is the final word in this matter.


okie wrote:
To understand more about what I think Obama believes, just listen to some of the rants of the Reverend Wright, and you will begin to get the picture.


Guilt by association.

"Bush's grandfather was a director of a company that profited from Nazi Germany. Therefore Bush must be a Nazi, too."

See? I can do it, too. Do you get the picture?


okie wrote:
Otherwise, all you get out of Obama are platitudes and vagueries.


Or you could look at what he is actually doing. You know, he's the President of the United States, after all. It's not like it's impossible to follow his actions.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Mar, 2009 01:42 am
@old europe,
old europe wrote:


Well, you apparently do not understand the politics of the Third Reich, nor do you understand the context of the Weimar Republic. That hasn't stopped you from claiming that Hitler was a socialist.

I guess we're even.


I give you two extra points. (Might participate from those as well.) Very Happy
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  3  
Reply Tue 24 Mar, 2009 07:55 am
Okie is welcome to use this link if it would be helpful. I suspect the numbnuts will just vote this down and not read it, but he and several others might find one businessowner's (A CPA) and employer's point of view to be rather interesting on the subject of 'demonizing capitalism'.

The link:
http://www.realclearmarkets.com/articles/2008/10/memo_to_obama_you_will_not_out.html

Excerpt:
Quote:
STOP DEMONIZING CAPITALISM

Senator Obama, your policies are an affront to capitalism and you demonize it with your subtle cynicism and your condescension.

Where capitalism appears to have failed is because of government intervention. This fact is not even debatable. Government intervention has created such deviant versions of capitalistic democracy that those variants should not even be called true capitalism.

Venezuela’s Hugo Chavez has declared class war on capitalism and democracy in Latin America. Much of the Latin American form of capitalism should be called “capitalistic cronyism,” where true open and vicious head-to-head commercial competition was never allowed to take root and the best entrepreneurial minds were hamstrung by aristocratic legacies and corrupted governments.

Do not compare America’s capitalism to its failed imitators. Your plans for more federal government intervention and control of our economy will most assuredly lead to the same fate as the club of failed imitators.


UNINTENDED CONSEQUNCES OF YOUR IDEAS ON OUR COMPANY AND OUR EMPLOYEES

Senator Obama, your promises of horrifying tax increases on me and on the company I run and your threats of even more burdensome regulation are, in your own words, “game changers.”

Higher corporate income taxes and payroll taxes rob and neuter all businesses great and small of their ability to make and keep essential promises to the people who depend on them. This is a shame and a consequence of idiotic and pander motivated ideas.

Under your taxation plan, I may one day be in a position to no longer make any meaningful promises to our fantastic employees.

I need you to come to Dallas and join me some day in our bi-weekly company staff meeting and tell them why their hard work may not be rewarded with higher compensation, promotions and higher self-worth, which all should come from their successful efforts.

You need to explain to them why I may no longer be able to afford the 100% matching contribution in their 401(k) plan.

You’ll need to explain why I may no longer be able to afford top-tier group medical, eye care, and dental insurance for them.

You’ll need to explain why I may no longer be able to afford to continue our great personal development programs.

You’ll need to explain to them why their stock options may never be as valuable as they had hoped because the company is less profitable and less valuable.

You’ll need to explain to vendors why I may no longer be able to do business with them because our revenues may drop and corporate tax rates rise.

The mere threat of your policies is force enough to cause small businesses to react. You and the Congress do not even need to enact them into law.

I must eventually yield to the socialist state. I will unfortunately have to run our company much leaner in anticipation of these terrible policies because I was born to use my talents and gifts toward a better life, not to be forced to suffer for the so-called “betterment of the greater good.” That is my truth and the truth of all closely-held businesses and their working class owners.

You need to ponder today the inevitable consequences of working class business owners giving up on the pursuit of joy, significance and meaning in their own lives in America because of our hostile tax, regulatory and legal environment. What would happen if we simply took our talents to another country like Ireland, Russia, China, India, or Brazil where ideas, labor, capital and victories are loved and respected?

All great lives commence with a person’s quiet realization he or she will not play the coward’s role. Working class business owners are the most courageous people in America, except for our men and women in uniform, those police officers protecting us on the streets of America, and firemen who rescue us from tragedy and peril.

Where you see a successful business, where you see a successful life, I promise you tremendous gut-wrenching courage has been exerted again and again to build that life. High tax rates discourage many talented people from ever acting on that call to courage. They simply conclude that it is not worth it.

Your unspoken Socialist creed “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need” is a creed which will eviscerate any chance of a great and honorable society.

The source of America’s daily sustenance and the source of her eternal salvation is from grace. There is no salvation from the federal government.

I believe our nation can achieve greatness beyond our imagination only if salvation by federal government is erased completely from our consciousness. It is a toxic addiction - the heroin from which we must commence immediate withdrawal.

The federal government is dysfunctional beyond repair. Dysfunctional organizations are chaotic and grossly inefficient and you, amazingly, intend to make it bigger. Why?

The first axiom on organizational dysfunction is that dysfunction increases exponentially by the sum of (a) the square of the headcount of its non-productive persons (usually the people who feel most victimized by the organization and who express extreme forms of social compassion to fix all of the world’s problems utilizing the resources of the organization) and (b) the cube of the number of incompetent management people. The federal government has set the bar high for this axiom. Just ask any working class businessperson who knows all too well the causes and dangers of inefficiency.

You, who have never run an organization in your life, may be stepping into the chairman’s seat of the largest most dysfunctional organization in the world. I am astonished you think you are prepared for it. I am even more horrified you want to make it bigger.

The purpose of business is to make people’s lives better. Business and commerce have improved and will improve far more lives than any government. Yet under your policies, we who improve the lives of others are targeted for extinction. We might all collectively “shrug,” give up and go on strike. What happens when there is no one left to create jobs like we can?

I have risked my entire financial future on noble enterprises which have improved the lives of others, and yes, even my own family. My family and I have borne the high cost of the pursuit of happiness.

I wake up every morning thinking about what promises to make and how I will honor the promises I have already made. This is the result of grace, but it is not grace itself.

I have paced the hallways of my own home for three straight days and nights worrying and praying about how to solve an insurmountable problem that I could not even define, or whom to trust, or where the resources would come from, and in the end successfully turned the dire situation to the good. This too was the result of grace, but it was not grace itself.

In the early years, I had to make more than one payroll out of rotating a series of personal credit cards because of tight cash flow and the commitment to my employees that they were always to be paid before me. This too was the result of grace, but it was not grace itself.

I have many times out of compassion, and when I did not have money, carried on the company payroll employees who were not performing as needed or could not be helped to improve, or who were going through a traumatic personal crisis. My benevolence gave these employees time and money to sort out their problems or to find other employment. This too was the result of grace, but it was not grace itself.

I have taken many complex and almost desperate situations and, from the wits of our leadership team, turned them into positive outcomes. This too was the result of grace, but it was not grace itself.

I have been sued many times under nuisance pretenses. The distractions of litigation did not and could not divert the energy needed to run and grow my organization. This too was the result of grace, but it was not grace itself.

Two years ago at the age of 50, I was diagnosed with a rapidly growing stage three throat cancer with only a 15% statistical chance of a five year survival. I do not smoke and I drink only an occasional glass of wine with a restaurant meal. This was not a tragedy. This was just life.

I suffered through the dehumanizing and debilitating effects of 40 radiation treatments, two bouts of poisonous chemotherapy, and recovery from more than one surgery. I am victorious and cancer-free for many reasons: the love and care from my family, friends and business colleagues, great new cancer treatment protocols to name a few. And prayer, yes, prayer to Almighty God for my healing.

But my victory is also very much due to the love of my work, my business, my aspirations to finish the unfinished, to make it perfect, and to take care of the people who depend on me. This is why small businesses and working class business owners are important to America. This too was the result of grace, but it was not grace itself.

Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Mar, 2009 08:17 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
.. he and several others might find one businessowner's (A CPA) and employer's point of view to be rather interesting on the subject of 'demonizing capitalism'. ...


What else would you expect as an opinion by the owner of "comprehensive multi-generational wealth management services"?
0 Replies
 
 

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