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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2009 03:02 pm
@Foxfyre,
Here's another conservative battle that has nothing to do with a human; they're cells for cry'n out loud, with no brains or feelings.

Quote:
Some states push back against stem cell research
Posted 41m ago

ATLANTA (AP) " A showdown is shaping up in some of the most conservative states in the U.S. over embryonic stem cell research, as opponents draw language and tactics from the battle over abortion to counter President Obama's plan to ease research restrictions.

Legislation granting fertilized embryos "personhood" has gained momentum in at least three state legislatures. The strategy " which has been used to try to undermine the landmark Roe v. Wade decision that legalized abortion in 1973 " is now aimed at embryonic stem cell research. The scientific field uses stem cells from human embryos, which can develop into different kinds of adult cells, to seek answers about human health.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2009 03:18 pm
Quote:
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/federal/fed.htm
THE FEDERALIST PAPERS
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed45.asp
No.45
Madison
...
The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected.

The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State. The operations of the federal government will be most extensive and important in times of war and danger; those of the State governments, in times of peace and security.
...

Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2009 03:28 pm
@ican711nm,
We would have a much different federal govrenment--in a good way--and much different state governments--in a good way--if we hadn't run off the track on that principle I think.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2009 03:34 pm
@ican711nm,
Quote:

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/federal/fed.htm
THE FEDERALIST PAPERS
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed01.asp
No.1
Hamilton
...
To judge from the conduct of the opposite parties, we shall be led to conclude that they will mutually hope to evince the justness of their opinions, and to increase the number of their converts by the loudness of their declamations and the bitterness of their invectives. An enlightened zeal for the energy and efficiency of government will be stigmatized as the offspring of a temper fond of despotic power and hostile to the principles of liberty. An over-scrupulous jealousy of danger to the rights of the people, which is more commonly the fault of the head than of the heart, will be represented as mere pretense and artifice, the stale bait for popularity at the expense of the public good. It will be forgotten, on the one hand, that jealousy is the usual concomitant of love, and that the noble enthusiasm of liberty is apt to be infected with a spirit of narrow and illiberal distrust. On the other hand, it will be equally forgotten that the vigor of government is essential to the security of liberty; that, in the contemplation of a sound and well-informed judgment, their interest can never be separated; and that a dangerous ambition more often lurks behind the specious mask of zeal for the rights of the people than under the forbidden appearance of zeal for the firmness and efficiency of government. History will teach us that the former has been found a much more certain road to the introduction of despotism than the latter, and that of those men who have overturned the liberties of republics, the greatest number have begun their career by paying an obsequious court to the people; commencing demagogues, and ending tyrants.

In the course of the preceding observations, I have had an eye, my fellow-citizens, to putting you upon your guard against all attempts, from whatever quarter, to influence your decision in a matter of the utmost moment to your welfare, by any impressions other than those which may result from the evidence of truth. You will, no doubt, at the same time, have collected from the general scope of them, that they proceed from a source not unfriendly to the new Constitution. Yes, my countrymen, I own to you that, after having given it an attentive consideration, I am clearly of opinion it is your interest to adopt it. I am convinced that this is the safest course for your liberty, your dignity, and your happiness. I affect not reserves which I do not feel. I will not amuse you with an appearance of deliberation when I have decided. I frankly acknowledge to you my convictions, and I will freely lay before you the reasons on which they are founded. The consciousness of good intentions disdains ambiguity. I shall not, however, multiply professions on this head. My motives must remain in the depository of my own breast. My arguments will be open to all, and may be judged of by all. They shall at least be offered in a spirit which will not disgrace the cause of truth.
...


0 Replies
 
JamesMorrison
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2009 03:43 pm
@Foxfyre,
Thanks for that Camille Paglia piece. I've been looking for an authority with a liberal bent that can present thoughtful arguments for their side. I can remember when Dems like Kennedy and Truman were more down to earth and practical in their thinking. Of course they seemed to be more interested in their country's well being then do Obama's crowd. It is now obvious to everyone with some objectivity that Rahm and company are making the President out to be some kind of naive 'babe in the woods" character.

"Barack the Magic Negro"? I haven't listened to Rush in about 7 years, but that is very funny. It is also very sad. Sad not because Rush is denigrating our President but because that very denigration is of all the voters who seemed to think Obama's mysticism was what this country needed. My wife kept asking: “What is he going to change and, more importantly, how is he going to accomplish it?” Apparently the method has a lot of similarities with Chicago politics.

JM

P.S. Where can I find her column?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2009 03:48 pm
@JamesMorrison,
JM, What is it about "Obama's crowd" that shows they're not interested in all the people? "Well being?" Thousands are losing their jobs and homes every day; what is it about "Obama's crowd" that isn't addressing this financial crisis?
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2009 03:50 pm
@JamesMorrison,
"Barack the Magic Negro" was originally published in the LA Times.
Rush simply took it and ran with it.

It was originally an op-ed piece written in 2007 by David Ehrenstein...
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-ehrenstein19mar19,0,5335087.story?coll=la-opinion-center

So for anyone to say that Rush created the name is a lie at best.
He simply used it.
okie
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2009 04:07 pm
@mysteryman,
mm, the left is listening to Rush every single day, examining every word, in efforts to find something, to marginalize him. They would love to document Rush as a racist, only problem is he isn't, so their job becomes a big problem. As you point out, he only reports what is out there in the press most of the time, and the Magic Negro bit was something that had been reported on as you point out.

The big one they are trying on Rush now, is that he wants Obama to fail, which is also falling flat, because Rush only wants the policies that are bad for America to fail, thus Obama should fail with these policies. Alot of information has come out about Democrats wanting Bush to fail, but their hatred for Bush was on another level, some even called or insinuated Bush should be killed. Rush's opposition to Obama is totally political, not personal.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2009 04:18 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:

mm, the left is listening to Rush every single day, examining every word, in efforts to find something, to marginalize him. They would love to document Rush as a racist, only problem is he isn't, so their job becomes a big problem. As you point out, he only reports what is out there in the press most of the time, and the Magic Negro bit was something that had been reported on as you point out.

The big one they are trying on Rush now, is that he wants Obama to fail, which is also falling flat, because Rush only wants the policies that are bad for America to fail, thus Obama should fail with these policies. Alot of information has come out about Democrats wanting Bush to fail, but their hatred for Bush was on another level, some even called or insinuated Bush should be killed. Rush's opposition to Obama is totally political, not personal.


We are? I haven't listened to Rush in a decade and neither has anyone I know. The only time we see/hear anything about him at all is when the media plays up something he says or does.

What does Rush think is going to happen to the country, if Obama's policies intending to help it, fail? He has not spent much time examining the consequences of what he hopes will happen.

You have it completely backwards when you say Dems wish to 'marginalize' Rush. Au contraire; we want you to keep promoting him and keep putting him forward as a leading voice of your party. Please. Look at what Emmanuel said - Rush is the heart and intellectual driving force in the Republican party. Is that something you say about someone you are trying to marginalize?

Why do the Dems wish Rush to be seen as a leader of your party?

Quote:
When asked if they agree with the statement, "Rush Limbaugh shares my values," or the opposite statement that he does not share their values, all voters break out at 32% yes, to 57% no. Among independents, it's 30%-58%.


http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/03/democracy-corps-limbaugh-drags-down-republicans----but-the-base-loves-him.php?ref=fp8

... Because he drives voters to our side in droves. So please - put him on more stations!

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2009 04:21 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Another one of those okie's imagination at work. Everybody listens to Limbaugh according to okie, because? LOL
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2009 04:44 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Obama's crowd is addressing the financial crisis! They are taking actions which are continually expanding, or leting expand, this financial crisis. They are making it worse. Is that their objective? If so why? If it's not their objective, why don't they learn from their mistakes and change the way they are addressing this problem?

It isn't enough to merely address a problem. It isn't enough to tell people how much you care about solving the problem. It is necessary to find ways to actually solve it. So far Obama's crowd is merely emulating Bush's failed attempts to solve the problem. No, that's not quite correct! Obama's crowd has greatly expanded on Bush's failed attempts to solve the problem.

The financial crisis was started by a pre-Bush federal government making and encouraging--via FM&FM--the making of bad debts. What's its solution? Make and encourage--via FM&FM--the making of vastly more bad debts.

Paraphraseing Albert Einstein: People who keep repeating their same failed actions expecting a different result, are crazy.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2009 04:45 pm
@ican711nm,
Quote:
they are making it worse.


Claptrap! I submit that you have no real grasp of the scope of the problem.

I ask you what you think the correct course of actions should be, and why that would be better than what is currently happening.

Cycloptichorn
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2009 05:07 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
I don't think your argument is entirely consistent with the facts.

While there is no doubt that Limbaugh's recent statement about hoping that Obama's policies fail was merely a (stupid in my view) bit of misleading sophistry designed to capture attention, it is also evident that liberals and Democrats really would like to silence him. One need only consider all the attention given to the ressurection of the so-called "fairness" doctrine in broadcasting.

Moreover, it is also a demonstrable fact that vulgar mockery of the opposition and unfair attempts at denigrating their characters & policies are more or less equal among the self-appointed spokesmen & advocates on the left and right in the public media. Bill Maher and Keith Oberman are Limbaugh's & Hannaty's equivalents on the left - they differ only in style and their relatively greater pretentions (as opposed to fact) of intellectual rigor.

There is no doubt that Democrat candidates in the Congress have been far more successful with the electorate than their Republican opponents lately - as you have repeatedly emphasized. Through most of the 1980s, 1990s and early in the Bush Administration the situation was largely reversed. Even during this period there were smaller swings in both directions. The point here is that this aspect of our political life is likely to remain dynamic - with continued swings in both directions. Historical patterns and the recent relative solidity of Republicans in Congress both strongly suggest that the next Congressional election will yield some reduction in Democrat majorities. Trends beyond that are hard to predict accurately, but reliable Democrat majorities are not likely to become a permanent feature of our political scene.

The President has some very tough issues before him, and there is no shortage of either fundamental contradictions or difficult trade-offs in the road ahead. He has already passed up a few significant opportunities to tame the excesses of his party - even in key areas in which he promised decisive reform. It won't get any easier to do these things: indeed one could well argue that he has let his best opportunity pass without taking action (this was one of Bush's central failings). His problem is that - even with today's majorities - he will need to tame these excesses in order to advance his objectives on health care, the economy, and other issues. Presidents of both parties get caught up in the accumulating compromises and errors that inevitably attend their actions, and Obama is demonstrating this already.

I don't want him to fail. However, I am not sufficiently confident I know where he really stands on some key issues. His lofty rhetoric promises a great deal, but the evident venality of appointed officials remains; the corruption in the Congress and its earmarked self-serving and wasteful appropriations continue. He has recently stated some confidence-inspiring positions on public education - but does he really mean them? He said similar things about eliminating lobbyists from his administration and stopping wasteful earmarks from Congressional appropriations. However, when the moments came we simply saw the same old ****.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2009 05:08 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I haven't listened to Rush in a decade and neither has anyone I know. The only time we see/hear anything about him at all is when the media plays up something he says or does.

What does Rush think is going to happen to the country, if Obama's policies intending to help it, fail? He has not spent much time examining the consequences of what he hopes will happen.
Cycloptichorn

No wonder you are ignorant of what he says, if you depend upon some leftie to spin what he says.

What does Rush think is going to happen to the country? About the same as I do, if Obama moves us further left, toward socialism and if he is successful in demonizing capitalism and the people that have made the economy as strong as it has been, it will be a disaster. He spends virtually 3 hours per day analyzing what other people say and predict, and what he predicts, so your assertion that he has not spent much time examinging the consequences is total bunk, cyclops. No wonder you are in the dark.

And to say the left is not trying to marginalize Rush is bunk also, there has been a program within the Whitehouse to try to use Rush as a political tool, but I don't think it will work. It will instead drive Rush's listenorship up, which apparently has, and people will form their own opinions.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2009 05:12 pm
@ican711nm,
ican, You expect a long-term crisis created by Bush over several years to be remedied in less than two months. Your reality doesn't show any common sense or logic, but are ready to criticize the stimulus plan that's just been put into action. They are not "expanding this financial crisis." They are trying to slow down the loss of jobs and homes, but expecting that to happen in less than one month shows you have no common sense.

1. They are addressing the financial crisis by adding cash to the banks so that they may loan money to consumers and small business.
2. They are expanding unemployment insurance for those who have lost jobs and are losing jobs by the thousands every day. They must continue to pay their mortgage or rent and buy food.
3. Nobody can emulate Bush; he belongs in that special place reserved for one of the most incompetent presidents any country ever had. He not only destroyed our economy, but the whole world economy by not watching over the cash till by the incompetence of the federal government agencies.
4. You ignoramuses keep blaming Mae and Mac for this current financial mess, because you have no knowledge about the mortgage derivatives that got most banks and finance companies into trouble - including AIG. Do some homework; they're available through Google.
5. Show us how Obama's stimulus plan repeats the failed policies of the Bush gang?
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2009 05:19 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
One other point, Rush has invited Obama to come on and answer all questions, and debate points of policy, without a teleprompter or notes, equal footing. After all, Obama wishes to make Rush an issue, this is his chance to finish Rush off, once and for all, and to show Rush to be the ignorant boob that he wants everyone to believe. I will not hold my breath waiting on Obama to take him up on it. Somehow, I don't think Obama has it what it takes, and he knows it. Not without Axelrod to tell him what to say.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2009 05:19 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
I haven't listened to Rush in a decade and neither has anyone I know. The only time we see/hear anything about him at all is when the media plays up something he says or does.

What does Rush think is going to happen to the country, if Obama's policies intending to help it, fail? He has not spent much time examining the consequences of what he hopes will happen.
Cycloptichorn

No wonder you are ignorant of what he says, if you depend upon some leftie to spin what he says.

What does Rush think is going to happen to the country? About the same as I do, if Obama moves us further left, toward socialism and if he is successful in demonizing capitalism and the people that have made the economy as strong as it has been, it will be a disaster. He spends virtually 3 hours per day analyzing what other people say and predict, and what he predicts, so your assertion that he has not spent much time examinging the consequences is total bunk, cyclops. No wonder you are in the dark.

And to say the left is not trying to marginalize Rush is bunk also, there has been a program within the Whitehouse to try to use Rush as a political tool, but I don't think it will work. It will instead drive Rush's listenorship up, which apparently has, and people will form their own opinions.


>smacks forehead<

We want Rush to be seen as the leader of your party, don't you get that?

I didn't ask you what would happen if Obama was successful, Okie. I asked what will happen to the country if he is NOT successful. Please pay attention.

Cycloptichorn
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2009 05:20 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:

One other point, Rush has invited Obama to come on and answer all questions, and debate points of policy, without a teleprompter or notes, equal footing. After all, Obama wishes to make Rush an issue, this is his chance to finish Rush off, once and for all, and to show Rush to be the ignorant boob that he wants everyone to believe. I will not hold my breath waiting on Obama to take him up on it. Somehow, I don't think Obama has it what it takes, and he knows it. Not without Axelrod to tell him what to say.


Why would he do such a thing? Obama wants Rush to run your party, not to finish him off. And I don't believe that he or anyone in his cabinet referred to Rush as an 'ignorant boob.'

You are getting all mixed up here.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2009 05:21 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
If Obama is not successful in instituting his policies, we may well return to more sound fiscal and economic policy, and we may return to more sane policies in regard to all kinds of issues, if conservatives can enjoy a resurgence.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2009 05:22 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:

If Obama is not successful in instituting his policies, we may well return to more sound fiscal and economic policy, and we may return to more sane policies in regard to all kinds of issues, if conservatives can enjoy a resurgence.


So, you think that if Obama's policies to stabilize the economy and the financial system fail to do that, then everything is going to get better?

How?

Cycloptichorn
 

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