55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Feb, 2009 12:43 pm
@Lightwizard,
Light, They don't "conveniently" leave out anything; they are blind to their own reality. They keep up their rhetoric about "tax cuts," while their own family and friends are losing their jobs and homes. Tax cuts has no meaning to them; they want jobs.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Feb, 2009 12:45 pm
@ican711nm,
It is instructive too going back to JFK's view of taxes and economic growth, that the unemployment rates during his too-short tenure as President were:

1960 - 5.5% (He was inaugerated in Jan 1961 as a fairly deep recession developed.)
1961 - 6.7%
1962 - 5.5%
1963 - 5.7%

From my post earlier this morning, to address the recession he inherited, he said early in his first year:

"Expansion and modernization of the nation's productive plant is essential to accelerate economic growth and to improve the international competitive position of American industry ... An early stimulus to business investment will promote recovery and increase employment."
"" John F. Kennedy, Feb. 2, 1961, message on economic recovery

"We must start now to provide additional stimulus to the modernization of American industrial plants ... I shall propose to the Congress a new tax incentive for businesses to expand their normal investment in plant and equipment."
"" John F. Kennedy, Feb. 13, 1961, National Industrial Conference Board

(His idea was not for the government to do this expansion but rather provide the incentive and ability for business/industry to do it themselves.)

And even as the worst of the crisis was easing:

"Our present tax system ... exerts too heavy a drag on growth ... It reduces the financial incentives for personal effort, investment, and risk-taking ... The present tax load ... distorts economic judgments and channels an undue amount of energy into efforts to avoid tax liabilities."
" John F. Kennedy, Nov. 20, 1962, press conference

"The present tax codes ... inhibit the mobility and formation of capital, add complexities and inequities which undermine the morale of the taxpayer, and make tax avoidance rather than market factors a prime consideration in too many economic decisions."
" John F. Kennedy, Jan. 23, 1963, special message to Congress on tax reduction and reform
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Feb, 2009 12:45 pm
@ican711nm,
Bureau of Economic Analysis
National Income and Product Accounts Table
Table 1.1.5. Gross Domestic Product
[Billions of dollars]
Today is: 2/9/2009 Last Revised on January 30, 2009 Next Release Date February 27, 2009
http://www.bea.gov/national/nipaweb/TablePrint.asp?FirstYear=1965&LastYear=2008&Freq=Year&SelectedTable=5&ViewSeries=NO&Java=no&MaxValue=14412.8&MaxChars=8&Request3Place=N&3Place=N&FromView=YES&Legal=&Land=

...
2000 "- 9,817.0 " +12.8%
2001 "- 10,128.0
2002 "- 10,469.6
2003 "- 10,960.8
2004 "- 11,685.9 -- +19.0%
2005 "- 12,421.9
2006 "- 13,178.4 -- +12.8%(over 2 years)
2007 "- 13,807.5
2008 "- 14,208.7 -- +21.6%(over 4 years)

ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Feb, 2009 12:50 pm
@ican711nm,
I reduced the period of Bush 43's term I considered, because my revenue data only had estimates for the years 2007 and 2008, and did not include tax rates for 2008.

But think about it, in 2007 and 2008 Bush was denied by the Democrat Congressional majority doing anything to rein in Fanny & Freddy & Ginny. Therefore, I charge that Democrat majority with playing a huge part WITH BUSH in causing the deficit and unemployment increases in those years.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Feb, 2009 12:55 pm
Quote:

by Daniel Mitchell PhD (excerpted):

The economy's sub-standard performance in recent years should come as no surprise. As seen below, major changes in tax policy inevitably affect growth.

Across-the-board tax rate reductions in the 1920s reduced the top rate from 71 percent to 24 percent. The economy boomed, growing by 59 percent between 1921 and 1929.

In 1930, Herbert Hoover raised tax rates from 25 percent to a maximum of 63 percent, and Franklin Roosevelt boosted them to 79 percent later in the decade. The 1930s, to put it mildly, are not remembered as one of the American economy's better decades.2

Across-the-board tax rate reductions introduced by President John F. Kennedy reduced the top rate from 91 percent to 70 percent. These lower rates, along with substantially lower taxes on savings and investment, are associated with the longest economic expansion in American history.3

The Johnson surtax, enacted in 1968 during the administration of President Lyndon Johnson, combined with the inflation-induced bracket creep of the 1970s (subjecting taxpayers to higher rates even though their real incomes had not changed), resulted in a decade of stagflation.

Reagan's across-the-board tax cuts ushered in America's longest peacetime expansion, helping to create 20 million new jobs and pushing incomes and living standards to record highs.

The tax rate increases imposed under George Bush and Bill Clinton, as outlined below, are associated with the slowest growing economy in 50 years and a decline of more than $2,000 in the average family's income.
http://www.heritage.org/research/taxes/BG1086.cfm
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Feb, 2009 12:56 pm
@ican711nm,
Foxfyre wrote:
Karl Marx had the well intended but misguided view that if you could just force society to structure itself so that everybody enjoyed the same benefits and assets, then we would have as close to utopia as can be achieved in this life.

But Marx did not allow for human behavior, human ambition, human greed, human willingness to leach off others, human distaste for being taken advantage of by others. And it was these characteristics of humanity that doomed Marxian ideals to failure. No government was possible that held that ideals are more important than self-serving power, influence, and profit and no society was subjected to a government that held that did not become mostly impoverished, oppressed, and without hope or opportunity to help themselves.

A reasonably regulated Capitalism, however, seeks for all to be all that each and every one of us are capable of being, and when it is manifested in a free and compassionate society, all persons are encouraged and have incentive to be all that we all can be. The government then serves best by performing its constitutionally mandated responsibilities, enacting sufficient laws to prohibit the people from doing injustice and violence to each other, and then it gets out of our way.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Feb, 2009 12:59 pm
@ican711nm,
Replace the current tax system with a flat uniform tax on gross income that permits zero deductions, zero exemptions, zero paybacks, and zero refunds with the one exception of deductions for contributions to private charities.

Why not cancel the federal government’s spending of trillions of dollars that will increase its deficit trillions? Why not instead set the flat uniform tax rate to a value that will produce the same trillion dollar deficit, but will allow the people to control their own spending of their own money? We know now that the people are far more capable of spending their own money than is the federal government capable of spending the people’s money.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Feb, 2009 01:01 pm
@ican711nm,
MACs desire to improve their capabilities and conditions by the own efforts. MALs want to equalize the capabilities and conditions of everyone by their own efforts. MACs want everyone to prosper. MALs want everyone to be suppressed to an equal economic level , regardless of what that level would be. MACs are greedy for every one’s growth, because they know that will enable them all to grow faster. MALs are greedy for everyone’s conformity, because that disables their differences faster .
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Feb, 2009 01:01 pm
@ican711nm,
That would be my vote.

Instead of the government accumulating trillions more in debt by attempting to spend us out of the current economic mess, if we must accumulate a huge deficit, let's do it by trusting the people to spend more of their own money more wisely, efficiently, and effectively than the government will do on their behalf.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Feb, 2009 01:02 pm
@ican711nm,
ican can't even show the real results on the federal budget (from his link):

[quote]

Year.....................................................................................Total.......On Budget. Off Budget,,Rec'ts......Outlays.......Surplus or Deficit
1990 ............................................................................... 1,032,094 ...1,253,130 .."221,036 ..750,439 ..1,028,065 …."277,626
1991 ............................................................................... 1,055,093 ...1,324,331.. "269,238 ..761,209 ..1,082,644 …."321,435
1992 ............................................................................... 1,091,328 ...1,381,649.. "290,321 ..788,902 ..1,129,310 …."340,408
1993 ............................................................................... 1,154,471 ...1,409,522 .."255,051 ..842,537 ..1,142,935 …."300,398
1994 ............................................................................... 1,258,721 ...1,461,907 .."203,186 ..923,695 ..1,182,535 …."258,840
1995 ............................................................................... 1,351,932 ...1,515,884 .."163,952 ..1,000,853.. 1,227,220 .."226,367
1996 ............................................................................... 1,453,177 ...1,560,608 .."107,431 ..1,085,685 ..1,259,704 .."174,019
1997 ............................................................................... 1,579,423 ...1,601,307 .."21,884 ….1,187,433 ..1,290,681 .."103,248
1998 ............................................................................... 1,721,955 ...1,652,685 ..69,270 …...1,306,156 ..1,336,081 ..."29,925
1999 ............................................................................... 1,827,645 ...1,702,035 ..125,610 ….1,383,177.. 1,381,257 ….1,920
2000 ............................................................................... 2,025,457... 1,789,216 ..236,241 ….1,544,873 ..1,458,451 ….86,422
2001 ............................................................................... 1,991,426 ...1,863,190 ..128,236 ….1,483,907 ..1,516,352 ..."32,445
2002 ............................................................................... 1,853,395 ...2,011,153 .."157,758 ...1,338,074.. 1,655,491 .."317,417
2003 ............................................................................... 1,782,532 ...2,160,117 .."377,585 ...1,258,690 ..1,797,108 .."538,418 Bush's tax cuts
2004 ............................................................................... 1,880,279 ...2,293,006 .."412,727 ...1,345,534 ..1,913,495 .."567,961 Bush's tax cuts
2005 ............................................................................... 2,153,859 ...2,472,205 .."318,346 ...1,576,383 ..2,069,994 .."493,611 Bush's tax cuts
2006 ............................................................................... 2,407,254 ...2,655,435 .."248,181 ...1,798,872 ..2,233,366 .."434,494 Bush's tax cuts
2007 estimate ................................................................ 2,540,096 ...2,784,267 .."244,171 ...1,905,966 ...2,332,984 .."427,018 Bush's tax cuts
2008 estimate ................................................................ 2,662,474 ...2,901,861 .."239,387 ...1,988,389 ...2,439,334 .."450,945
2009 estimate ................................................................ 2,798,307 ...2,985,473 .."187,166 ...2,086,937 ...2,499,661 .."412,724
2010 estimate ................................................................ 2,954,724 ...3,049,085 .."94,361 ….2,201,442 ….2,540,528 ."339,086 [/quote]
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Feb, 2009 02:02 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Well, looky there, Cice, at these Deficit trends.
2004 ... "567,961 Bush's tax cuts
2005 ... "493,611 Bush's tax cuts
2006 ... "434,494 Bush's tax cuts
2007 estimate ... "427,018 Bush's tax cuts
2008 estimate ... "450,945

The Deficits decreased after 2004 to 2007, after Bush's primary tax cuts began to take effect. Of course the Deficits increased in 2008 after the Democrat's failure to help Bush deal with Fanny&Freddy&Ginny in 2006 began to take effect.

Thank you for your help making my point, Cice.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Feb, 2009 02:08 pm
@ican711nm,
SUMMING UP CONTENT OF LINKS I PREVIOUSLY POSTED

CARTER
Unemployment increased from 7.1% in 1977, to 7.6% in 1981.
Income tax rates constant 14% min to 70% max in 1977 thru 1981.
Revenues increased from 355,559 million in 1977, to 599,272 million in 1981.
GDP increased from 1,825.3 billion in 1976, to 2,789.5 billion in 1980.

REAGAN
Unemployment decreased from 9.7% in 1982, to 5.6% in 1990.
Income tax rates decreased from 12% min and 50% max in 1982, to 15% min and 33% max in 1990.
Revenues increased from 617,766 million in 1982, to 1,032,094 million in 1990.
GDP increased from 2,789.5 billion in 1980, to 5,103.8 billion in 1988.

BUSH 43
Unemployment decreased from 6.0% in 2003, to 4.6% in 2006.
Income tax rates decreased from 15% min and 39.1% max in 2001, to 10% min and 35% max in 2006.
Revenues increased from 1,991,426 million in 2001, to 2,407,254 million in 2006.
GDP increased from 9,817.0 billion in 2000 to 14208.7 billion in 2008.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Feb, 2009 02:14 pm
@Foxfyre,
THIS IS WORTH REPEATING
Foxfyre wrote:
Instead of the government accumulating trillions more in debt by attempting to spend us out of the current economic mess, if we must accumulate a huge deficit, let's do it by trusting the people to spend more of their own money more wisely, efficiently, and effectively than the government will do on their behalf.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Feb, 2009 02:21 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

SUMMING UP CONTENT OF LINKS I PREVIOUSLY POSTED

CARTER
Unemployment increased from 7.1% in 1977, to 7.6% in 1981.
Income tax rates constant 14% min to 70% max in 1977 thru 1981.
Revenues increased from 355,559 million in 1977, to 599,272 million in 1981.
GDP increased from 1,825.3 billion in 1976, to 2,789.5 billion in 1980.

REAGAN
Unemployment decreased from 9.7% in 1982, to 5.6% in 1990.
Income tax rates decreased from 12% min and 50% max in 1982, to 15% min and 33% max in 1990.
Revenues increased from 617,766 million in 1982, to 1,032,094 million in 1990.
GDP increased from 2,789.5 billion in 1980, to 5,103.8 billion in 1988.

BUSH 43
Unemployment decreased from 6.0% in 2003, to 4.6% in 2006.
Income tax rates decreased from 15% min and 39.1% max in 2001, to 10% min and 35% max in 2006.
Revenues increased from 1,991,426 million in 2001, to 2,407,254 million in 2006.
GDP increased from 9,817.0 billion in 2000 to 14208.7 billion in 2008.



Why can't you be honest, and post the Jan. 2009 unemployment rate as the true record for Bush? And why don't you include Clinton's numbers in there?

Likely b/c Clinton makes the rest look like chumps, and you know it.

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Feb, 2009 02:24 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
ican et al loves to show selective parts of what is available on web-land to try to prove their point, but we all know they are very selective to show only the "positive points," and doesn't show the true results of what they are trying to say. They lie to themselves and everybody on a2k, because they can't handle the truth.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Feb, 2009 02:54 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Why can't you ... post the Jan. 2009 unemployment rate as the true record for Bush? And why don't you include Clinton's numbers in there?

Likely b/c Clinton makes the rest look like chumps, and you know it.

The negative effects of Clinton's tax increases began in Clinton's last full year, 2000, and were passed on to Bush to handle in 2001, 2002, 2003. Bush's 2003 tax cut benefits began to occur in 2004.

The 2008, and January 2009 unemployment rate is the result of Bush and the Democrat Congress failing to rectify the Fanny&Freddy&Ginny mortgage loan debacle back in 2006. Until that debacle is finally rectified, unemployment will continue to increase.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Feb, 2009 03:02 pm
@ican711nm,
How can Bush's 2003 tax cuts that were supposed to create jobs started to benefit Americans in 2004 when Bush's job creation is the worst since Hoover?

Quote:
Press Release"for immediate release"November 15, 2005
Contact: Christina Kasica, 617-423-2148, ext. 119
(cell phone 617-966-0554)
Thanksgiving 2005 Report:

No Correlation Between Bush Tax Cuts
and Job Creation
Rate of Job Growth at Historic Low After 4 Years of Tax Cuts; Quality of Jobs Poor

DOWNLOAD THE REPORT HERE: Nothing to Be Thankful For (PDF, 2.53 MB).

BOSTON"As outrage in Congress stalls the Bush administration's attempts this Thanksgiving season to extend tax cuts that will primarily benefit the wealthy, a new study examines the administration's claim that tax cuts create jobs"and finds it without merit.

Evidence shows that, historically, changes in tax rates have no discernible effect on employment. Moreover, during the Bush administration, job creation since 2003 has fallen millions of jobs short of the administration's promises, and is significantly below what would normally be expected even without extraordinary economic stimulus.

"Contrary to what President Bush and his tax policymakers are saying, tax cuts do not automatically create jobs. Tax cuts are just one of many things that can affect job growth," said Liz Stanton, director of research at United for a Fair Economy (UFE) and a co-author of the report.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Feb, 2009 03:09 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Cicerone Imposter you are hearby awarded a doctorate in the formulation of slanders of MACs that are true for MALs.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Feb, 2009 03:13 pm
@ican711nm,
ican, FYI, nobody can slander what doesn't exist.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Feb, 2009 03:17 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Why can't you ... post the Jan. 2009 unemployment rate as the true record for Bush? And why don't you include Clinton's numbers in there?

Likely b/c Clinton makes the rest look like chumps, and you know it.

The negative effects of Clinton's tax increases began in Clinton's last full year, 2000, and were passed on to Bush to handle in 2001, 2002, 2003. Bush's 2003 tax cut benefits began to occur in 2004.

The 2008, and January 2009 unemployment rate is the result of Bush and the Democrat Congress failing to rectify the Fanny&Freddy&Ginny mortgage loan debacle back in 2006. Until that debacle is finally rectified, unemployment will continue to increase.



So what? It happened under Bush's watch, he's responsible at the end of the day. Post the actual numbers instead of the ones you like.

Clinton's term saw 8 years of amazing growth, and I should remind you that the tax cut he put in in 1998 was in much closer proximity to the 2000 recession than any increases from 1993. What you posit does not follow logically.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.12 seconds on 06/16/2025 at 12:03:00