55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 05:41 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxie wrote:
Quote:

The fact that few if any score 100% on certain kinds of tests does not mean that there is no such thing as a perfect score. The fact that few if any can or do fit my (or anybody else's) definition of a MAC 100% does not change the definition.


That's your personal definition. It doesn't mean all MACs believe in your definition.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 05:44 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Yep, because a definition is what it is. So far a few folks have agreed with at least some components of my defintion and a whole lot of folks have criticized my definition but not one single one has proposed coming up with a different one. So I have to figure my definition is as good as any until somebody comes up with something better.

The fact that few if any score 100% on certain kinds of tests does not mean that there is no such thing as a perfect score. The fact that few if any can or do fit my (or anybody else's) definition of a MAC 100% does not change the definition.

It is my belief that the party that reclaims most of the MAC principles and is willing to go to the mat to demonstrate them will be the party that will be the salvation of the United States. I think to continue to spiral down down down into more and more socialism will have far reaching and mostly detrimental effect on the United States of America. I think that when the GOP abandoned many MAC principles, it cost them their leadership role in the USA and they will not regain it until they realize that.

It is that which I personally most want to debate on this thread though other components are certainly appropriate here too.


I suppose as long as you admit that your 'MAC' definition is not supported by the reality of modern politics amongst Conservatives or Republicans, I have no problem with a thought experiment.

It is when you purport to use your definition to show some sort of superiority over Liberal thought that one must object, however; you cannot use your theoretical definition to challenge the real world in any way.

Don't you find it interesting that the Republican party, and most Conservatives, have abandoned these principles? Why did they do so, if they are so self-evident as you present them?

Questions such as this should shape your definitions into something more closely matching the reality of the Conservative movement in modern America.

To be fair, you seemed to be more interested and have put more work into your definition than anyone else; it's no surprise that nobody has proposed coming up with an alternative one. Those few who have tried seem to be firmly rooted in examining actual actions and words by actual Conservatives, which can never stand up to your pure theoreticals.

Quote:

The fact that few if any score 100% on certain kinds of tests does not mean that there is no such thing as a perfect score. The fact that few if any can or do fit my (or anybody else's) definition of a MAC 100% does not change the definition.


This is merely a restatement of the old belief amongst Conservatives: "Conservatism cannot fail, only we can fail it." It provides definitions which are unusable in actual context, this kind of thinking.

Cycloptichorn
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 06:03 pm
@blatham,
You can try and say that there MIGHT be a secret pardon, but can you name any other President that issued one?
I dont think it has ever happened.

The fact is, you dont want to pay up.
If thats the case, just admit that you lost and refuse to pay up.
Of course, if you do that I will post your comment to Roxxxanne where you said you would pay, showing that you are not a man of your word.
If you do pay up, I will be the first to announce to the world that you kept your word.

So ,the choice is yours.
Admit you lost and pay up, or admit that you had no intention of ever paying up if you lost.
Its up to you.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 07:58 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn's statements are in black. Ican's statements are in blue.

I suppose as long as you admit that your 'MAC' definition is not supported by the reality of modern politics amongst Conservatives or Republicans, I have no problem with a thought experiment.

What is your definition of "the reality of modern politics?" Until you provide such a definition your statement has no discernible meaning.

If one were to assume that a large majority of contemporary Conservatives or Republicans do not meet the definition of fMAC (i.e., Foxfyre's definition of MAC), one still could not rationally conclude that fMAC is not a reality. fMAC is real if even only one person subscribes to and supports behavior consistent with its definition. Based on the mail I get, there are a very large number of people who subscribe to and support MAC = fMAC. Truth is these same subscribers to MAC are well aware that there is a large percentage of those claiming to be adherents to contemporary Conservative or Republican principles who actually are not adherents to MAC. The fact is adherents to MAC are currently working to either convert or replace those claimants who are not adherents.


It is when you purport to use your definition to show some sort of superiority over Liberal thought that one must object, however; you cannot use your theoretical definition to challenge the real world in any way.

Liberal thought ? What the hell is Liberal thought anyway? You, Cycloptichorn, as well as others who are critical of MAC continue to fail to provide a stable and consistent definition of MAL (i.e., Modern American Liberalism) that would facilitate a valid comparison with MAC. Absent that definition, we adherents to MAC can define MAL for you and criticize what we think MAL is.

Don't you find it interesting that the Republican party, and most Conservatives, have abandoned these principles? Why did they do so, if they are so self-evident as you present them?

MAC is self evident to those not corrupted by their current compulsion to GO ALONG TO GET ALONG. A majority of congressional republicans are so corrupted. We call them RINOs (i.e., Republicans in Name Only). Those claiming to be conservatives but are not adherents to MAC are infected with the same compulsion. They are CINOs (i.e., Conservatives in Name Only).

Questions such as this should shape your definitions into something more closely matching the reality of the Conservative movement in modern America.

I guess this really stupid statement means political definitions should be modified to match perceived consensus. We advocate MAC. We will not modify the definition of MAC to satisfy those who do not advocate MAC. Instead we will persist in our effort to change these non-advocates of MAC to be advocates of MAC.

To be fair, you seemed to be more interested and have put more work into your definition than anyone else; it's no surprise that nobody has proposed coming up with an alternative one. Those few who have tried seem to be firmly rooted in examining actual actions and words by actual Conservatives, which can never stand up to your pure theoreticals.

Again, those who are not actually advocates of MAC are not actually Conservatives. They are CINOs.

Quote:

The fact that few if any score 100% on certain kinds of tests does not mean that there is no such thing as a perfect score. The fact that few if any can or do fit my (or anybody else's) definition of a MAC 100% does not change the definition.

This is merely a restatement of the old belief amongst Conservatives: "Conservatism cannot fail, only we can fail it." It provides definitions which are unusable in actual context, this kind of thinking.

Those who are not actually advocates of MAC cannot actually establish a conservatism that is MAC. Such persons fail MAC. MAC does not fail them. MAC works. It has worked multiple times in the past. MAL does not work It has failed multiple times in the past. MAL advocates the government giving away to persons and organization that which the government cannot constitutionally--that is, legally--give away.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 09:52 am
@ican711nm,
That was what prompted this thread in the first place. The GOP has been so overpopulated with RINOs and CINOs that it bears little resemblance to the GOP freshman class that swept itself into power selling fMAC principles on a fMAC platform in 1994. Why was it able to do that? I think mostly because a large majority of the American public was angered by what they considered unnecessary tax hikes and an attempted socialist takeover of the American health system early in the Clinton administration.

The GOP increased its holdings in 1996, 1998, and 2000 by implementing sound fMAC principles and the nation prospered partly due to policies enacted and partly due just because it was a time for prosperity. MACs do not put any stock in government power to boost or stimulate the economy other than through policies that encourage the economy to stimulate itself and the Congressional efforts to block increased socialism, to do welfare reform, and to get closer to a balanced budget were all recognized and appreciated by most of the American public.

In my view of it, the brilliant and visionary leadership of that succesful GOP freshman class, however, went away before they could accomplish all that needed to be done, and nobody was raised up to fill the void. President Bush is a great guy but unfortunately was not up the task of keeping the train on the tracks. So, the RINOs and CINOs gained sufficient power in the GOP to discredit it in the eyes of the conservative GOP constituency and those RINOs, CINOs, and liberal Democrats then at least in part created or allowed the mess we are currently in.

I sometimes despair and think it may be too late to turn it around. But then I wouldn't be an eternal optimist would I? I think if enough people could honestly realize what happened and demand that Congress fix it instead of putting a mostly aesthetic multi-trillion dollar band-aid on it, we will get out of this mess as we have gotten ourselves out of many messes in the past.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 10:28 am
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

Cycloptichorn's statements are in black. Ican's statements are in blue.

This is merely a restatement of the old belief amongst Conservatives: "Conservatism cannot fail, only we can fail it." It provides definitions which are unusable in actual context, this kind of thinking.

Those who are not actually advocates of MAC cannot actually establish a conservatism that is MAC. Such persons fail MAC. MAC does not fail them. MAC works. It has worked multiple times in the past. MAL does not work It has failed multiple times in the past. MAL advocates the government giving away to persons and organization that which the government cannot constitutionally--that is, legally--give away.


As I said - you have set up a system which by definition is infallible. This is not a good way to design a definition. A realistic definition would not rely on assertions that it 'works' and every time supposed adherents to that system don't work, it's a failure of them personally, not the system.

Surely you two realize this? Hopefully you realize this?

Cycloptichorn
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 10:30 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Can you choose a MAC principle that in your opinion has not worked and provide a good example to support your opinion?
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 10:37 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
Can you choose a MAC principle that in your opinion has not worked and provide a good example to support your opinion?

No -- and Cycloptichorn clearly explained why not:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
As I said - you have set up a system which by definition is infallible.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 10:52 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Can you choose a MAC principle that in your opinion has not worked and provide a good example to support your opinion?


Thomas is correct.

My problem, Fox, is that Conservatism - not your somewhat odd definition of it, but the actual actions taken by actual, self-described Conservatives whilst in government - often does fail to accomplish the tasks at hand. So it's impossible to square the track record of actual adherents to the cause, with your definition.

It would be like me defining Liberalism as a shining, infallible, perfect worldview, and the only issue is that people just can't be purely liberal enough. That's as silly as what you are doing here.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 10:53 am
@Thomas,
While I think the defnition is quite adequate to describe what I think a MAC is, if we assume that you are correct, then by what criteria do you or Cyclop or anybody else pronounce Modern American Conservatism a failure or unacceptable or something which you cannot endorse?
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 10:55 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

While I think the defnition is quite adequate to describe what I think a MAC is, if we assume that you are correct, then by what criteria do you or Cyclop or anybody else pronounce Modern American Conservatism a failure?


I don't think you understand what either of us are saying. It's not that I think your definition is a bad definition of what Conservatism should be, I just don't think it matches up to the reality of Conservatism in America.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 11:06 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
By what criteria do you or Cyclop or anybody else pronounce Modern American Conservatism a failure or unacceptable or something which you cannot endorse?

I don't, because your term "modern American conservatism" is meaningless to me.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 11:19 am
@Thomas,
Me too! It really describe anything including "conservatism." She still can't admit or realize that her definition is how "she" sees it.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 11:41 am
Okay let's try it again:

Here's what I have come up with for a definition so far, and as nearly as I can tell, the others who identify themselves as conservatives on this thread have not had a problem with it:

THE DEFINITION TO DATE. ANY WHO DO NOT AGREE WITH THIS DEFINITION, PLEASE SPEAK UP NOW OR WE WILL ASSUME THAT YOU ACCEPT THE DEFINITION:

Modern American Conservatism (MAC)

is consistent with:
Classical liberalism (also known as traditional liberalism[1], laissez-faire liberalism[2], market liberalism[3] or, outside the United States and Britain, sometimes simply liberalism) is a doctrine stressing individual freedom and limited government. This includes the importance of human rationality, individual property rights, natural rights, the protection of civil liberties, individual freedom from restraint, constitutional limitation of government, free markets, and a gold standard to place fiscal constraints on government[4] as exemplified in the writings of John Locke, Adam Smith, David Hume, David Ricardo, Voltaire, Montesquieu and others. As such, it is the fusion of economic liberalism with political liberalism of the late 18th and 19th centuries.[2] The "normative core" of classical liberalism is the idea that laissez-faire economics will bring about a spontaneous order or invisible hand that benefits the society,[5] though it does not necessarily oppose the state's provision of some basic public goods with what constitutes public goods being seen as very limited.[6] The qualification classical was applied retroactively to distinguish it from more recent, 20th-century conceptions of liberalism and its related movements, such as social liberalism[7] and other forms of Collectivism, which promote a more interventionist role for the state in personal matters of the individual. Classical liberals are suspicious of all but the most minimal government[8] and object to the welfare state[9].
Ludwig von Mises, Friedrich Hayek, and Milton Friedman, are credited with influencing a revival of classical liberalism in the twentieth century after it fell out of favor beginning in the late nineteenth century and much of the twentieth century.[10][11] In relation to economic issues, this revival is sometimes referred to, mainly by its opponents, as "neoliberalism". The German "ordoliberalism" has a whole different meaning, since the likes of Alexander Rüstow and Wilhelm Röpke have advocated a more interventionist state, as opposed to laissez-faire liberals[12][13]. Classical liberalism has many aspects in common with modern libertarianism, with the terms being used almost interchangeably by those who support limited government.[14][15]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism

Included within this broad definition we have also discussed though not necessarily all have yet agreed that MAC includes but is not necessarily limited to the following principles:

1. The Constitution, as understood and intended by those who wrote and ratified it, must be enforced as the best protector of the people’s unalienable, legal, civil, and human rights. No judge or court should be acceptable who would presume to interpret the Constitution differently than those who wrote and ratified it interpreted it.

2. In all matters that do not violate any unalienable, legal, civil, and human right or violate any law necessary for an efficient, free, prosperous, and orderly society, local communities should be able to order and conduct their lives as they please. That includes respect for and honoring traditional values that have served society well. (Ican recently enumerated some of the laws and values that would apply within this concept.)

3. The government should do only those things/functions that are Constitutionally mandated and that cannot be done more efficiently or effectively by the private sector.

4. The government can help coordinate and facilitate necessary relief efforts in major disasters but must be prohibited from using the people’s money to buy their votes.

5. A people who look to the government to provide their basic needs and/or provide prosperity cannot be a free people.

6. How to be compassionate to the poor is best described by Benjamin Franklin: “I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer."“

7. Property precedes government, and a people cannot be free nor can any government be uncorrupted that presumes to take lawful property from Citizen A and give that property to Citizen B.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 11:48 am
@Foxfyre,
I mean, that's nice and all; but it doesn't adequately describe modern Conservatism in practice. See, all those 'RINOs' and 'CINOs' that you guys go on about? They are Conservatives. You may claim that they are not, but that's just a dodge to keep your definitions from being muddied by actual people who don't act the way you say Conservatives should act. I'm more interested in a definition of how they do act then how they should act.

There are problems with your theory, also: much of it is subject to interpretation which leads to inevitable corruption. For example,

Quote:

1. The Constitution, as understood and intended by those who wrote and ratified it, must be enforced as the best protector of the people’s unalienable, legal, civil, and human rights. No judge or court should be acceptable who would presume to interpret the Constitution differently than those who wrote and ratified it interpreted it.


Who decides how they intended it? And who decided that this is even a true statement? We've amended the Constitution many times, b/c we didn't agree with the intent of those who wrote it. Should we not support Constitutional Amendments?

Quote:
That includes respect for and honoring traditional values that have served society well.


Who decides what 'served society well' means?

Quote:

3. The government should do only those things/functions that are Constitutionally mandated and that cannot be done more efficiently or effectively by the private sector.


Who decides what is more efficient/effective?

Quote:

7. Property precedes government, and a people cannot be free nor can any government be uncorrupted that presumes to take lawful property from Citizen A and give that property to Citizen B.


Are you against all taxation, then? ALL taxation is redistributive by it's very nature.

---

ACTUAL Conservatives use these ambiguities as their tools of corruption quite often; your pure principles have a hell of a lot of wiggle room in them when the rubber hits the road.

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 11:49 am
@Foxfyre,
Okay, now list all the conservative presidents who lived by that definition?
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 11:52 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
THE DEFINITION TO DATE. ANY WHO DO NOT AGREE WITH THIS DEFINITION, PLEASE SPEAK UP NOW OR WE WILL ASSUME THAT YOU ACCEPT THE DEFINITION:

I disagree with your definition, and have offered the dictionary definitions as my alternative -- several pages ago.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 11:53 am
@Thomas,
I missed your different definition, Thomas. Please provide a link to it or restate it as I would like to see it.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 11:55 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
As I said - you have set up a system which by definition is infallible. This is not a good way to design a definition. A realistic definition would not rely on assertions that it 'works' and every time supposed adherents to that system don't work, it's a failure of them personally, not the system.

Malarkey! We have done no such thing. We have never "set up a system which by definition is infallible." Neither of us has at any time said MAC is invalible. What we have said is that MAC works better than MAL, and better than what RINOs and CINOs advocate. We have simply defined that which we know has worked well in the past, and have advocated be employed again.

I think it ironic that you allege that MAC is by definition infallible. If you truly believe that, then why do you not join us and advocate MAC too. While we don't think it infallible, we do think it is far better than MAL, a system of taking money from tax payers and illegally giving it to individuals and organizations that MALers (i.e., adherents to MAL) define as needy. Many of these so-called needy are actually self-supporting voters MALers are bribing to donate to their re-election campaignes and/or vote for MALers.

I think the best way to begin to cure MALitis is to totally replace the current federal tax system with a flat income tax on all gross incomes: that is, a tax at the same rate on each and every dollar of income without exemptions, deductions, exclusions, or refunds of any kind. Then every earner of income who is a voter will have a stake in keeping federal taxes and expenditures low and will be less bribable by MALers, RINOs, and CINOs

Would this be a perfect tax. Probably not. It would simply be much better than the current tax system. Such a system would not become perfect until all humans become perfect. Private charity would continue to be required to help people rescue themselves from their disabilities and failures. However, private charities are motivated to continually decrease the number of people who continue to be dependent on them. While government charities are motivated to continually increase the number of people who continue to be dependent on them.
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 11:56 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
See, all those 'RINOs' and 'CINOs' that you guys go on about? They are Conservatives. You may claim that they are not, but that's just a dodge to keep your definitions from being muddied by actual people who don't act the way you say Conservatives should act.

... and ironically, the politician most frequently derided as a "RINO" is Ron Paul -- arguably the closest thing Congress has to a classical liberal.
 

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