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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2009 03:36 pm
@Lightwizard,
Stagnation and destruction is more like it.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2009 03:37 pm
@Foxfyre,
Ah ha! Foxfyre! So you are biased against "our great American kookdom!"
Don't you realize that both Liberals as well as Conservatives have members that are part of the consensus among "our great American kookdom?"

All "our great American kookdom" needs is some persistent understanding and counseling.
(-|o)
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2009 04:06 pm
@Lightwizard,
Not by the seat of my pants at all, but based on some reliable history. But I won't waste my time with those whose interest is to bash conservatism or Republicans or President Bush and who demonstrate no interest in actually discussing any concept honestly. There are any number of active threads out there which are suitable for that and which will be well received.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2009 04:15 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

Ah ha! Foxfyre! So you are biased against "our great American kookdom!"
Don't you realize that both Liberals as well as Conservatives have members that are part of the consensus among "our great American kookdom?"

All "our great American kookdom" needs is some persistent understanding and counseling.
(-|o)


Yep. Those bloomers on the horses and change the name of fish to something more sympathetic and plants have feelings folks are liberal to the core so, if honest, we have to acknowledge that all ideologically based groups have some kooks in their midst.

Just some examples:

1. The ones who believe LBJ had JFK killed.
2. The ones who believe President Bush and/or Vice President Cheney had the levee blown up so that New Orleans would be flooded and black people drowned.
3. The ones who are convinced that the Holocaust never happened and that we never put a man on the moon.
4. The ones who believe our government staged 9/11 and planted explosives to bring down the World Trade Center buildings and no plane ever hit the Pentagon.
5. The one who believed and even argued on the floor of the House that George H.W. Bush took a stealth fighter plane and flew it to Europe to delay the release of the hostages held by Iran to ensure that the release would be after Reagan's inaugeration.
6. The one who argued on the House floor that so many slaves died on the trips to America that sharks swim that very route to this day as a result.

There's lots and lots more.
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2009 06:48 pm
@Foxfyre,
No need to bash conservatives, Republicans, or whatever -- they're managing to dig their own grave and need only fall into it. They are not creative by nature so there is not great art or great technology or great inventions by conservatives. They are not makers, but users.

If you believe you can begin a new conservative movement, what are you doing here trying to convince anyone that conservatism is a remake of classic liberalism? You're case is poorly presented and your "proof" is poof.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2009 11:58 pm
@Lightwizard,
The primary goals for the religious right are a) teach creationism in our science class, and b) deny homosexuals equal rights under the laws. They still haven't figured out that the important issues of our day are the financial crisis and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 07:14 am
@Foxfyre,
Just some examples:
Quote:

1. The ones who believe LBJ had JFK killed.
2. The ones who believe President Bush and/or Vice President Cheney had the levee blown up so that New Orleans would be flooded and black people drowned.
3. The ones who are convinced that the Holocaust never happened and that we never put a man on the moon.
4. The ones who believe our government staged 9/11 and planted explosives to bring down the World Trade Center buildings and no plane ever hit the Pentagon.
5. The one who believed and even argued on the floor of the House that George H.W. Bush took a stealth fighter plane and flew it to Europe to delay the release of the hostages held by Iran to ensure that the release would be after Reagan's inaugeration.
6. The one who argued on the House floor that so many slaves died on the trips to America that sharks swim that very route to this day as a result.

There's lots and lots more.


Indeed there are lots more, Foxfyre. I hope I can get a smile out of you by pointing out that an addition that came immediately to my mind was:

7. The Republicans and conservatives who think white voters in places like Mississippi, Georgia, Alabama, Tennessee, Louisiana, Kentucky, Texas, and Arkansas overwhelmingly favor the Republican Party and American conservatism because of considerations about smaller government and prudent fiscal policy rather than because both the Republican Party and American conservatism have agendas that appeal to and further racist notions.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 10:00 am
@Frank Apisa,
The smile is only due to the absurdity of that No. 7, Frank, and doesn't fit the definition of kookdom except as follows:

It assigns racist motives to most of an entire group of people without knowing anything of the minds and hearts of those people or because it cannot be accepted that so many people in one area could possibly believe in smaller government and prudent fiscal policy and therefore they must be racists.

To draw such an assumption based on nothing more than one wants to believe it does sort of wander across the line into kookdom a bit. It ignores all the evidence to the contrary. For instance it does not take into consideration that people in any given area can be quite homogenous in their political views.

If we accept No. 7 as a valid analogy, then we have to assume that states or districts with majorities of Democrats are made up of people who are drawn to the Democratic Party because they want bloomers put on horses for decency, think it is appropriate to throw red paint on women who wear fur coats, think plants have feelings, and want to call fish 'sea kittens' or promote communist or socialism. Such people do not register Republican.

Of course those same Democrats would have to turn a blind eye to great writers/thinkers/economists/sociologists such as Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, Shelby Steele, and other great people who happen to be black and who would take strong exception to your assumption. Smile <-smile

Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 11:02 am
@cicerone imposter,
Occurs to me that acronym MAC is equivalent to:

MLC - Modern Loony Creationist
MCB - Modern Closet Bigots
MWM - Modern War Machine
and add

MWW - Modern Wagon Wheel

(with their invention techniques, that would be a square wheel)

Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 11:06 am
@Lightwizard,
If you have a more descriptive or simpler term/word for Modern American Conservatism LW, let's hear it. Until then MAC is useful. I didn't invent the acronynm--one of our more stridently liberal members did. And I liked it.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 11:07 am
@Foxfyre,
Okay, Foxfyre...continue to think that the redneck from the states I mentioned are principled and not racist in their overwhelming support of American conservatism and the Republican Party.

Continue to think it is absurd to assert differently.

No problem there for me.

In fact, as I have said, I hope all American conservatives come to that same position.

It is a winner for me.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 11:14 am
@Frank Apisa,
I will continue to believe what I believe until you or somebody else I respect gives me better reason than their own prejudices to believe something different.

Again:

Quote:
It (you) assigns racist motives to most of an entire group of people without knowing anything of the minds and hearts of those people or because it cannot be accepted that so many people in one area could possibly believe in smaller government and prudent fiscal policy and therefore they must be racists.

To draw such an assumption based on nothing more than one wants to believe it does sort of wander across the line into kookdom a bit. It ignores all the evidence to the contrary. For instance it does not take into consideration that people in any given area can be quite homogenous in their political views.


I accept that you despise conservatism. Our Constitution gives you that right. But I also have the right to see your point of view as prejudiced because it makes assumptions about a whole group of people because you object to some of its members while giving a pass to another whole group despite the make up of its members.

There are strident racists within both major parties and within all ideologies, and in neither case are those racists within the Republican and Democratic Parties representative of anything close to the majority.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 11:44 am
@Foxfyre,
Go with it, Foxfyre.

I'm on your side on this one big time.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 12:09 pm
@Foxfyre,
As you can't judge the individual by only words, everyone is entitled to their private beliefs, including preconceptions and biases. Belief is what a person wants to be true, not necessarily what is actually true. It's not possible to place any group of individuals by what some faction of that group who gain power reacting as all politicians do, which is either in the interest of the people or for their group only. There are and always will be mixtures of liberal and conservative ideals that have improbabilities to achieve and trying to define oneself by a group is not liberation , but conformity.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 12:11 pm
Am I a MAC if I believe that the commandments 6 through 10, the Declaration of Independence 2nd paragraph, 1st sentence, the Constitution of the USA, plus the following statement should govern the behavior of our federal government and the American people:
Those people who deny others any of their inallienable rights forfeit those same rights.

I sure hope so!
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 12:13 pm
Does anyone think there is racism in any of that?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 12:25 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

Am I a MAC if I believe that the commandments 6 through 10, the Declaration of Independence 2nd paragraph, 1st sentence, the Constitution of the USA, plus the following statement should govern the behavior of our federal government and the American people:
Those people who deny others any of their inallienable rights forfeit those same rights.

I sure hope so!


Yup, in my opinion that puts you right in the dead center of MACdom though certainly any MAC might debate the fine points of interpretation within any point made. I, for instance would amend your last point to read "Those people who deny others any of their unalienable rights SHOULD USUALLY forfeit those same rights" but justice can require some give and take re error that is well intended. For instance a police officer who believes he is acting prudently and with cause and is ruled to have acted imprudently and without cause should not necessarily receive the ultimate punishment for his error. That sort of thing.

There is no racism in there however.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 12:29 pm
@Lightwizard,
Lightwizard wrote:

As you can't judge the individual by only words, everyone is entitled to their private beliefs, including preconceptions and biases. Belief is what a person wants to be true, not necessarily what is actually true. It's not possible to place any group of individuals by what some faction of that group who gain power reacting as all politicians do, which is either in the interest of the people or for their group only. There are and always will be mixtures of liberal and conservative ideals that have improbabilities to achieve and trying to define oneself by a group is not liberation , but conformity.


You may need to expand this a bit to clarify as I am not 100% certain what you are saying here. My first impulse however was to agree with what I think you are saying. I agree that we all are a mixture of conservative and liberal beliefs and leanings and concepts and I hold know illusion that any person on this earth is infallible in his/her perceptions and beliefs.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 12:31 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

Am I a MAC if I believe that the commandments 6 through 10, the Declaration of Independence 2nd paragraph, 1st sentence, the Constitution of the USA, plus the following statement should govern the behavior of our federal government and the American people:
Those people who deny others any of their inallienable rights forfeit those same rights.

I sure hope so!


How can I have freedom of religion and be governed by any number of religious commandments?

Murder is illegal not because the bible says so, but because of social order. Murder has been illegal in cultures before the Hebrews, and in cultures that did not have the old testament (like China or India before western powers).

You can' govern yourself by those commandments, but know your limits.

T
K
O
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 12:32 pm
@Diest TKO,
But how does a principle have any less credibility because it is included within a religious doctrine ancient or modern? Shall we legalize murder because the ancient Hebrews made it illegal and we disapprove of their religion? MACs believe a good idea is a good idea no matter who thought it up or who shares it.
 

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