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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2008 12:15 pm
I like this statement of yours:

Foxfyre wrote:
I accept that you consider a subsidy to entice a business to locate in an area is government interference in the free market. I don't as I hold the Conservative point of view.
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Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2008 02:48 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
To OE and TKO:

I suggest you put my words in the their proper context and interpret them as I said them rather than rewording and reinterpreting them to fit your liberal agendas and rather predictable mindsets.

I won't be drawn into straw man and red herring arguments because you don't want to deal with what I've said.

I accept that you consider ANY activities of government to be socialism. I don't as I hold the Conservative point of view.

I accept that you consider a subsidy to entice a business to locate in an area is government interference in the free market. I don't as I hold the Conservative point of view.

I accept that you think I contradict myself and/or am an idiot. I may do that now and then and I may be. But I sure as hell have come up with better arguments than either of you on this. Smile


What a cop out. I thought you were here to debate. If you were just going to lower yourself to this level I would not have wasted my time on you.

You either address my points, or you bow out. It's not my responcibility to reconcile your rhetorical deficit or your double standards. Your propaganda is getting old.

The irony here is that you know less about true conservative philosophy than you do about the "typical liberal left." You'd never acknowledge the socialist elements in our own country or even in your own actions.

Because "socialist" is a dirty word.

T
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2008 03:04 pm
Noted TKO. But you have been less responsive to my comments than I have been to yours. I am happy to share my opinions and provide my rationale for why I believe what I believe. I am not interested in veering off into non-related subjects such as child labor, etc. which are unrelated to this discussion as I have explained. It is not the function of government to dictate morality to business. It is only the function of government to provide a healthy economic environment and enforce existing laws.

If you wish to discuss the morality or practicality or anything else about importing products from China or whatever and why you object to that fine. Start a thread on that. If it is anything other than a Bush-bashing or Wal-mart bashing or something along those lines, I would find such a discussion interesting.

For purposes of discussing Conservative values, I prefer to focus on what I consider Conservative values specific to the subject being discussed.
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Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2008 03:15 pm
You are mistaking my post for e_brown's (not that I disagree with his points about labor). He addressed labor, and I'd like ot add that you introduced the word "morality" into the dialogue. I also, haven't meantioned Bush once. Further, I have taken a great deal of time addressing your posts in great detail.

In short: Get your names straight.

T
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2008 03:44 pm
Diest TKO wrote:
You are mistaking my post for e_brown's (not that I disagree with his points about labor). He addressed labor, and I'd like ot add that you introduced the word "morality" into the dialogue. I also, haven't meantioned Bush once. Further, I have taken a great deal of time addressing your posts in great detail.

In short: Get your names straight.

T
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You're right. You didn't mention child labor laws or Bush; I'm simply using those as illustrations of the type of debate that is being conducted here. You were the one with the 'swing and a miss' list peppered with inferred ad hominems concluded with I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm sorry, but I don't find that kind of debate either intelligent or interesting and I pretty much lump it in with what I consider to be the other straw men, red herrings, and non arguments.

Now if you should choose to actually discuss the issues providing what you think about them and why you think as you do instead of telling me what I think (incorrectly) and how wrong that is, it could be an interesting discussion. I have no problem with you disagreeing with me. I would just like to hear your take on it and how you arrived at the opinion that you hold. I have already explained that my opinion on it arises out of a basic Conservative point of view.

I am not interested in participating in the usual Liberal style of bait and switch questions that divert from the actual subject or a 'did too - did not' - 'is too - is not' exchange. But thank you for playing.
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Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2008 03:54 pm
Obsurd!

I have taken a great deal of time addressing your points while you simply address a contrived liberal left construct instead. How dare you.

You at most have addressed a quarter of my points.

Either way, I've expressed my points, and you've proven them.

T
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Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2008 03:54 pm
Obsurd!

I have taken a great deal of time addressing your points while you simply address a contrived liberal left construct instead. How dare you.

You at most have addressed a quarter of my points.

Either way, I've expressed my points, and you've proven them.

T
K
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Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2008 03:55 pm
Obsurd!

I have taken a great deal of time addressing your points while you simply address a contrived liberal left construct instead. How dare you.

You at most have addressed a quarter of my points.

Either way, I've expressed my points, and you've proven them.

T
K
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2008 04:08 pm
As I said TKO, thank you for playing.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Mar, 2008 11:46 am
Okay, now back to conservative values, the following describes my favorite Supreme Court Justice and also the qualities that I hope we find in the the next appointees:

Clarence Thomas
Mr. Constitution

By DAVID B. RIVKIN and LEE A. CASEY
March 22, 2008; Page A25

Clarence Thomas leaps from his chair. He retrieves a wire coat hanger from his closet for a demonstration -- the same demonstration he gives his law clerks. He bends it and says: "How do you compensate? So, you say well, deal with it. Bend this over here. Oh, wait a minute, bend it a little bit there. And you're saying that it throws everything out of whack. What do you do?"

He holds up a twisted wire, useless now for its original purpose and the point is made. "If you notice sometimes I will write just to point out that I think that we've gone down a track that's going to cause some distortion, then it's quite precisely because of that. I don't do things that I think are illegitimate in other areas, just to bend it back to compensate for what's already happened."


Terry Shoffner
Interpreting the Constitution is the Supreme Court's most important and most difficult task. An even harder question is how to approach a Constitution that, in fact, is no longer in pristine form -- with the Framers' design having been warped over the years by waves of judicial mischief. There is an obvious temptation to redress the imbalance, which Associate Justice Thomas decisively rejects. Thus his coat hanger metaphor.

So is the most controversial Supreme Court justice an "originalist" when it comes to Constitutional interpretation? He says he doesn't like labels, though he does admit to being a "meat and potatoes" kind of guy.

Upon entering his spacious office overlooking the Capitol Dome in Washington, D.C., the first thing to catch your eye is his Nebraska Cornhuskers screen saver. Mr. Thomas never attended the University of Nebraska, or even lived in the state. He's just a fan. His office is also decorated with pictures of the historical figures he admires, Frederick Douglass, Abraham Lincoln, Booker T. Washington, Thomas More and Winston Churchill, and he speaks of them with knowledge and passion. Watching over all is a bust of his grandfather atop Mr. Thomas's bookcase -- its countenance as stern as a Roman consul. There is little doubt this man was the driving force in Mr. Thomas's life -- a fact he confirms, and which is reflected in the title of his recently published memoir, "My Grandfather's Son."

Mr. Thomas faced one of the most destructive and personally vicious Supreme Court confirmation hearings in American history -- described at the time by Mr. Thomas himself as a "high-tech lynching." Mr. Thomas's opponents smeared his character and integrity. To this day, disappointed and embittered, they feel entitled to insult his qualifications, intelligence and record.

In 2004, when Mr. Thomas's name was floated as a possible replacement for ailing Chief Justice William Rehnquist, then Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid called him an "embarrassment" to the Court, and attacked his opinions as "poorly written."

In point of fact, Mr. Thomas's opinions are well-written, displaying a distinctive style -- a sure sign that the Justice and not his clerks does most of the writing.

As for his judicial philosophy, "I don't put myself in a category. Maybe I am labeled as an originalist or something, but it's not my constitution to play around with. Let's just start with that. We're citizens. It's our country, it's our constitution. I don't feel I have any particular right to put my gloss on your constitution. My job is simply to interpret it."

In that process, the first place to look is the document itself. "And when I can't find something in that document or in the tradition or history around that document, then I am getting on dangerous ground. Because that's when you drift so much more towards your own policy preferences."

It is the insertion of those policy preferences into the interpretive process that Mr. Thomas finds particularly illegitimate. "People can say you are an originalist, I just think that we should interpret the Constitution as it's drafted, not as we would have drafted it."

Mr. Thomas acknowledges that discerning a two-hundred-year-old document's meaning is not always easy. Mistakes are possible, if not inevitable, as advocates of a malleable "living constitution," subject to endless judicial revision, never tire of pointing out. "Of course it's flawed" agrees Mr. Thomas, "but all interpretive models are flawed."

Simply following your own preferences is both flawed and illegitimate, he says. "But if that is difficult, does that difficulty legitimate just simply watching your own preference?" By doing that "I haven't cleared up the problem, I've simply trumped it with my personal preferences."

Mr. Thomas has also been criticized for his supposed lack of respect for precedent. Even his fellow conservative, Justice Antonin Scalia, was reported by a Thomas biographer to have claimed that Mr. Thomas just doesn't believe in "stare decisis." Latin for "let the decision stand," stare decisis is an important aspect of the Anglo-American system of precedent -- deciding new cases based on what the courts have done before and leaving long established rules in place.

Mr. Thomas, however, is less absolute here than his critics suggest. He understands the Supreme Court can't simply erase decades, or even centuries, of precedent -- "you can't do it."

At the same time, he views precedent with respect, not veneration. "You have people who will just constantly point out stare decisis, stare decisis, stare decisis . . . then it is one big ratchet. It is something that you wrestle with." History would seem to vindicate Mr. Thomas and his insistence on "getting it right" -- even if that does mean questioning precedent.

The perfect example is Brown v. Board of Education (1954), where the Supreme Court overruled the racist "separate but equal" rule of Plessy v. Ferguson (1896), which permitted legally enforced segregation and had been settled precedent for nearly 60 years.

It is the Plessy dissent of Justice John Marshall Harlan to which Mr. Thomas points for an example of a Justice putting his personal predilections aside to keep faith with the Constitution. Harlan was a Kentucky aristocrat and former slaveowner, although he was also a Unionist who fought for the North during the Civil War. A man of his time, he believed in white superiority, if not supremacy, and wrote in Plessy that the "white race" would continue to be dominant in the United States "in prestige, in achievements, in education, in wealth and in power . . . for all time, if it remains true to its great heritage and holds fast to the principles of constitutional liberty."

"But," Harlan continued, "in view of the Constitution, in the eye of the law, there is in this country no superior, dominant, ruling class of citizens. There is no caste here. Our Constitution is color-blind, and neither knows nor tolerates classes among its citizens."

That, for Mr. Thomas, is the "great 'But,'" where Harlan's intellectual honesty trumped his personal prejudice, causing Mr. Thomas to describe Harlan as his favorite justice and even a role model. For both of them, justice is truly blind to everything but the law.

More than anything else, this explains Mr. Thomas's own understanding of his job -- a determination to put "a firewall between my [PERSONAL\]view and the way that I interpret the Constitution," and to vindicate his oath "that I will administer justice without respect to person, and do equal right to the poor and to the rich, and that I will faithfully and impartially discharge and perform all of the duties incumbent upon me as an Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States."

This insistence by the Justice on judging based upon the law, and not on who the parties are, presents a stark contrast with today's liberal orthodoxy. The liberal approach -- which confuses law-driven judging with compassion-driven politics, enthused with a heavy distrust of the American political system's fairness -- was recently articulated by Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama, who emphasized the need for judges with "heart" and "empathy" for the less fortunate, judges willing to favor the disempowered.

Born in rural Georgia in 1948, Mr. Thomas and his brother were mostly raised in Savannah by their maternal grandparents. His grandfather, Myers Anderson, believed in work, and that rights come with responsibilities. According to his book, Mr. Anderson told the seven-year-old Clarence that "the damn vacation is over" the morning he moved in.

Says Mr. Thomas: "Being willing to accept responsibility, that sort of dark side of freedom, first -- before you accept all the benefits. Being ready to be responsible for yourself -- you want to be independent. That was my grandfather." Anderson also taught his grandson to arrive at his conclusions honestly and not "to be bullied away from opinions that I think are legitimate. You know, not being unreasonable, but not being bullied away."

For a man who has been subjected to a great deal of vitriol, Mr. Thomas manifests remarkable serenity. He rejoices in life outside the Court, regaling us with stories about his travels throughout the U.S., his many encounters with ordinary Americans, and his love of sports -- especially the Cornhuskers, the Dallas Cowboys and Nascar.

Mr. Thomas isn't much bothered by his critics. "I can't answer the cynics and the negative people. I can't answer them because they can always be cynical about something."

Mr. Thomas speaks movingly about the Court as an institution, and about his colleagues, both past and present. He sees them all, despite their differences, as honorable, each possessing a distinctive voice, and trying to do right as they see it. Our job, he concludes, is "to do it right. It's no more than that. We can talk about methodology. It's merely a methodology. It's not a religion. It is in the approach to doing the job right. And at bottom what it comes to, is to choose to interpret this document as carefully and as accurately and as legitimately as I can, versus inflicting my personal opinion or imposing my personal opinion on the rest of the country."

And why doesn't he ask questions at oral argument, a question oft-posed by critics insinuating that he is intellectually lazy or worse? Mr. Thomas chuckles wryly and observes that oral advocacy was much more important in the Court's early days. Today, cases are thoroughly briefed by the time they reach the Supreme Court, and there is just too little time to have a meaningful conversation with the lawyers. "This is my 17th term and I haven't found it necessary to ask a bunch of questions. I would be doing it to satisfy other people, not to do my job. Most of the answers are in the briefs. This isn't Perry Mason."
WSJ LINK
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Mar, 2008 08:32 am
"Conservatism", Bush/Cheney/neoconservative version...where war is good and honesty is a weak man's strategy.

Quote:
Chile's ambassador to the U.N. alleges in his new book, A Solitary War: A Diplomat's Chronicle of the Iraq War and Its Lessons, that the Bush administration's efforts to corral support for the Iraq war engendered enduring "bitterness" and "deep mistrust" among allies in Europe and Latin America. Bush allegedly threatened economic retaliation against nations that withheld support, "spied on allies, and pressed for the recall of U.N. envoys that resisted U.S pressure to endorse the war." (Washington Post)

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Mar, 2008 09:00 am
We'd perhaps assume as well that a sane and non-criminal version of 'conservatism' would not, when asked about this...

http://static.crooksandliars.com/2008/03/0404_coffins400x496.thumbnail.jpg

smile and respond with, "So?"
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Mar, 2008 09:24 am
blatham wrote:
We'd perhaps assume as well that a sane and non-criminal version of 'conservatism' would not, when asked about this...

http://static.crooksandliars.com/2008/03/0404_coffins400x496.thumbnail.jpg

smile and respond with, "So?"


What's the point here Blatham? Looks like caskets returning from a war being given proper reverence and attention.

Should it be shocking that soldiers die in a war? Or are you trying to make an implication regarding Bush's decision to not continuously show the caskets returning from Iraq and Afghanistan?

Really Blatham, what's the point?
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Mar, 2008 09:34 am
Seven personal deferments. Drove a nation to a senseless and hugely destructive war with lies. In the process, enriching his corporate friends. And when asked about the Americans who had died in his fun little project, he smiles and responds, "So?".

The point might be in there somewhere. Keep looking.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Mar, 2008 09:45 am
blatham wrote:
Seven personal deferments. Drove a nation to a senseless and hugely destructive war with lies. In the process, enriching his corporate friends. And when asked about the Americans who had died in his fun little project, he smiles and responds, "So?".

The point might be in there somewhere. Keep looking.


Oh, ok. It was just a pedantic jab at Bush.

I dodn't think there was much there, good to see i was right.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Mar, 2008 11:48 am
No. Not the little fellow. The big fellow... His Lowness, Cheney

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SypeZjeOrY4
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Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Mar, 2008 11:57 am
Watch the vid McG. Cheney's response is disgusting. Know what you are defending before you fight for it. Otherwise, you might just fight for conservatism, only to betrayed. Then, when you look to them for an answer, they will just say "so?."

T
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mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Mar, 2008 12:16 pm
And what about all of the dead Americans that were killed in wars gotten into by Democrat Presidents?
Are those casualties OK?

2 of the most deadly wars ever fought by the US (US casualty wise) were gotten into by democrat presidents.

Why are you ignoring that fact?
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Mar, 2008 12:24 pm
mysteryman wrote:
And what about all of the dead Americans that were killed in wars gotten into by Democrat Presidents?
Are those casualties OK?

2 of the most deadly wars ever fought by the US (US casualty wise) were gotten into by democrat presidents.

Why are you ignoring that fact?


When Germany was finally invaded, allied soldiers found that there were no WOMD there at all and subsequent anaysis revealed that Germany had actually not attacked anyone since WW1 (when they were beaten and driven back) and that the claims made before the war regarding what Germany was up to were all false and the population here had merely been frightened by false information and scare tactics.
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Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Mar, 2008 12:38 pm
mysteryman wrote:
And what about all of the dead Americans that were killed in wars gotten into by Democrat Presidents?
Are those casualties OK?

2 of the most deadly wars ever fought by the US (US casualty wise) were gotten into by democrat presidents.

Why are you ignoring that fact?


I'm not ignoring anything, I'm just trying to (1) address how inapropriate Cheney's remarks were, and (2) ask why they are worth defending?

Trying to bait a switch MM is what Foxfyre claims the liberals do. Be careful, you might get your membership card revoked. Rolling Eyes

T
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