55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
okie
 
  0  
Reply Tue 9 Dec, 2008 10:12 pm
@okie,
To use an analogy of tax waivers to chosen companies, it would be akin to the referees of a football game assessing penalties to the visiting team in half as many yards as they do the home team. This would obviously be weighting the game toward the visiting team. Referees would be akin to the government, and they are supposed to insure the rules are followed by both teams so that the teams can compete on an even playing field, the free market. The referees should not try to be a factor in the outcome of the game, that would be fixing the game and it is illegal in sports. Sports is just a game, but business involves peoples livelihoods, and for government to apply the rules differently to different people or different businesses, that should be criminal, it should be illegal. I realize businesses competing can all win perhaps, but not always, sometimes there are too many people playing and somebody may lose out, that is just reality, and face it, Walmart has put alot of people out of business, not solely because of tax breaks I am sure, but that certainly has not helped the locals when Walmart has obtained concessions to move into a community.

Again, I am shocked that I am the only one that seems to be irritated by it. I don't hear this in the news, not on talk radio, nowhere to speak of. And again, I brought this up because of this factor in the auto manufacturing business, such as what the state of Tennessee has done.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Dec, 2008 10:36 pm
@okie,
Okay I agree that businesses should not be brought in and given sweetheart deals to compete with existing businesses. But to solicit industry that only adds to the job and tax base etc. of the community and thereby benefits everybody, I just don't see a problem with that. Again, the initiative has to have widespread community support. Maybe if they require the business to be non-retail or service and dealing in products that are marketed elsewhere only?
okie
 
  0  
Reply Tue 9 Dec, 2008 10:48 pm
@Foxfyre,
I don't mean to be difficult, but even a business that sells outside the jurisdiction, it doesn't matter, if one business's property taxes are waived, then all property taxes for all businesses in that jurisdiction should be repealed. After all, perhaps a new company is competing for buying a piece of land to expand, or perhaps it drives up the rent for existing business space, there are lots of considerations. Besides, it is unfair. It should be against the law.

I can understand some states have no personal income tax, but it applies to all citizens, not just citizens that agree to move there. That would be ridiculous, and it would not be lawful, but that would be the same principle, the very same thing that is being done with businesses. And both Republicans and Democrats are equally guilty as far as I can tell. I think we have lost our sense of ethics in this country.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Dec, 2008 11:36 pm
@okie,
Of course you mean to be difficult because you believe passionately in what you are saying. Smile

But again, I do not wish for us to lose rural America. If small towns are rendered unable to provide any attractive incentive to lure jobs, capital, and all the benefits that come with them, then I fear we shall continue to see first the schools close, then the churches, then the businesses, one by one until little or nothing is left.

Surely there is a way to compromise on this?
okie
 
  0  
Reply Tue 9 Dec, 2008 11:57 pm
@Foxfyre,
I think the compromise is make the tax rates low for every business. And make the natural resource business strong, and agriculture strong. The oil business, and energy like solar and wind, they have helped, and they can continue to help and support rural America. Things like mining and the timber industry are also vital.

To clarify, I think competition for business between taxing jurisdictions may be okay, even healthy, if everything is the same within that jurisdiction, each jurisdiction has one standard for everyone within it.

I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but I brought this up because I think it has been one huge issue that has been totally overlooked and ignored, and one that has played havoc with businesses now for a long time. It has become a game that businesses and jurisdictions play, that should never have become a game in the first place.

I will shut up about it now, and I wish you well in your debates here with the likes of Parados, Debra, Walter, ci, etc.

In regard to gay marriage, why now is my opinion, I think it is a slippery slope, and there is no extent to which the left will be happy about anything? Once gay marriage is commonplace, it will be some other moral injustice they will begin to harp about until the entire country looks like San Francisco or Amsterdam. And have you noticed they have decided to clean Amsterdam up a little bit now?
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Dec, 2008 12:23 pm
@okie,
Don't leave me Okie. I can't defend conservatism all by myself. In the process of arguing in defense of conservative principles among ourselves, it is possible we might be able to educate a few young minds filled with mush lest they become radical and fixed as some do. And so far it is only mostly you others who lean conservative who have been able to put up any kind of reasoned debate at all.

But lets look at one small town: Borger TX.

Most of rural America has been supported by farming and ranching but towns require population to be viable. As the national population grew, so did land values along with crushing taxes imposed by the liberals of the immediate previous generations. The result was that as the old timers died off, their heirs could not afford the taxes and had to sell so that more and more of the land went into the hands of large corporations who had little or no interest in or concern for the people who live in the area. They certainly didn't locate their families in the area. As the original families sold out and moved away, much of rural America has declined or closed up shop.

Borger, population about 14,000, sits in the heart of the Texas Panhandle, 40 miles from the nearest interstate or airport. The airport is Amarillo offering limited (and terrible as well as expensive) connections to anywhere. The land is harsh without much in the way of aesthetics and the climate can be brutally hot in the summer and brutally cold in the winter interspersed with tornadoes and sand storms. Somehow it even missed out on being the county seat which is at Stinnett, population 1200, 10 miles north.

But Borger thrives. Why? Because years ago it gave a sweetheart deal to Phillips Petroleum to build and then expand a refinery which is now the largest in West Texas. The plentiful and high paying jobs provided by that refinery provide a solid financial base benefitting all the other commerce and industry in Borger. The town is friendly and safe with good schools and medical service sufficient to encourage people to move there.

You can look around the Panhandle at other small towns, and every one that is making it has been able to entice a similar entity to locate there--a large meat packing plant here, a Pantax Plant there, etc. Agriculture alone won't sustain these places anymore, but industry does. Those industries don't compete with other businesses in the towns, but they make the other businesses viable. But none would have moved to those places without the towns making it very attractive to them to do so.

There is my argument and why I would oppose a blanket government regulation forbidding a community from doing whatever it must do to attract new commerce and industry.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Dec, 2008 12:30 pm
@Foxfyre,
Actually we are arguing two conservative principles that are at odds with each other. Is there no way to take the best from each and make them work?
okie
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Dec, 2008 12:47 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
There is my argument and why I would oppose a blanket government regulation forbidding a community from doing whatever it must do to attract new commerce and industry.

I have no problem with that as long as they extend the same tax breaks, such as if it is property taxes, to all businesses in that county or city. And not just temporary. Surely there must have been more reasons to move there than just taxes or sweetheart deals? I can't believe any company would move somewhere based soley upon one sweetheart deal, they must also have all the other things needed, infrastructure, location, labor pool, and all of the rest. I am simply not going to buy the idea of sweeheart deals being necessary or desireable, Foxfyre.

A community has to sell itself more upon lasting and genuine reasons, and if every community was barred legally from doing it, then each community would have to decide what tax rates they could live with, let the chips fall where they may. I am fundamentally opposed to having to make logical business decisions based upon taxing issues, it should be about real world factors concerning a business, things like location, transportation, and all of the rest that really affect the efficiency of an operation.

Now, we have the government giving special treatment to auto makers, banks, who's next. We've lost faith in real world factors that control the basic business model.

The problem we are dealing with has infected all businesses it seems. For example, the phone company is content to charge me a higher rate unless I call and negotiate a lower rate. I resent that. Why should businesses have to go places to negotiate sweetheart deals with taxes, etc.? That to me is wrong.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Dec, 2008 12:48 pm
@Foxfyre,
Interesting article.

Quote:

Jeff Frankel's Weblog

What Does It Take to Define Away the Statistics Showing Superior Economic Performance Under Democratic Presidents than Under Republicans?

Monday, September 15th, 2008
By Jeffrey Frankel


Economic Policy Institute, September 2008.

A panel on Supply Side Economics in Washington, September 12, included statistics on the superior performance of the American economy under President Clinton compared to his Republican successor. (The graph to the right, from Ettlinger & Irons, shows the first term of each administration. The growth gap widened subsequently.) Former Treasury Secretary Larry Summers gave some statistics that included Democratic versus Republican presidents throughout the postwar period. (The event was jointly sponsored by the Center for American Progress and the Economic Policy Institute.)

By coincidence, in a column in that day's Wall Street Journal, Donald Luskins sought to "get something settled once and for all. Have the stock markets and the economy historically done better under Democrats or Republicans?"

Here is what he wanted to straighten us out on: "Superficially at least, the Democratic claims are true: Since 1948, the Standard & Poor’s 500 total return (capital gains plus dividends) has averaged 15.6% when a Democrat was in the White House and only 11.1% when a Republican was in the White House. You get a similar result if you look at growth in real gross domestic product. Under Democratic presidents, the average since 1948 has been 4.2%. Under Republican presidents it has been only 2.8%." But then he goes on to argue that Kennedy should really be classified as a Republican (he cut taxes), Nixon as a Democrat (wage-price controls), George H.W. Bush as a Democrat (he raised taxes), and Bill Clinton as a Republican (free trade; and he might have added eliminating the budget deficit, supporting the Fed, reforming welfare, other policies that would normally be thought of as conservative). He argues that if you make these switches in party assignments, then the US stock market and economy has performed better under "Republican" presidents (which, remember, now includes Kennedy and Clinton) than under "Democrats" (which now includes Nixon and the first Bush).

I am still not sure whether the column was meant as a joke. At the risk of finding out that I have been taken in by a prank, I will assume that the author is serious. Brad de Long picked this one up right away, and thinks the author is serious. (Luskins, it turns out, is the guy who has apparently devoted much of his adult life to attacking Paul Krugman.) But Brad didn't offer any sort of detailed rebuttal. I suppose one could argue "live by ad hominem, die by ad hominem." But I think blogosphere courtesy, such as it is, calls for a substantive reply.

My first response is to point out that the Nixon, Bush and Clinton policies he cites are not isolated cases, but appear on a longer list of examples I like to give showing how for the last 40 years, rhetoric notwithstanding, Republican presidents have pursued policies that are surprisingly farther removed from the ideal of good neoclassical economics than have Democratic presidents. This is especially true if one defines neoclassical economics as the textbook version, which allows government intervention for externalities, monopolies, etc. But I would argue that it applies even to the "conservative economics" version that puts priority simply on small government.

The criteria underlying this generalization about Republican presidents are:
(1) Growth in the size of the government, as measured by employment and spending.
(2) Lack of fiscal discipline, as measured by budget deficits.
(3) Lack of commitment to price stability, as measured by pressure on the Fed for easier monetary policy when politically advantageous.
(4) Departures from free trade.
(5) Use of government powers to protect and subsidize favored special interests (such as agriculture and the oil and gas sector, among others).

I have documented in writings listed elsewhere that Republican presidents have since 1971 indulged in these five departures from "conservatism" to a greater extent than Democratic presidents. The name I would give to this set of departures, as well as to the parallel abuses of executive power in the areas of foreign policy (intervening in Iraq) and domestic policy (intervening in people's bedrooms), is neither "liberal" nor "conservative" but, rather, "illiberal."

My second response is to point out that the author is re-defining "Republican" and "Democrat" tautologically to be "good" or "bad." A definition that departs so far from actual party affiliation does unacceptable linguistic violence. And of course it is circular logic to then find that the economy does better under "Republican" presidents than "Democratic."

An analogy: Marx and Engels of course professed to have the welfare of the common man as their goal. The Soviet Constitution asserted that the USSR expressed "...the will and interests of the workers, peasants, and intelligentsia." It claimed to embody democracy, the rights of freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, freedom of religion, inviolability of the person and home, and the right to privacy. Needless to say, this was all pure rhetoric, which was continuously and comprehensively violated by the actual operations of the Soviet state. But by Luskins' logic, the western democratic system, which did put these ideals into practice should be re-classified as communist, and the superior performance of the western system should be chalked up as going to the credit of communism! It makes no more sense to credit the achievements of Bill Clinton to the Republicans than it would to credit the achievements of western democracy to the Communists.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Dec, 2008 01:19 pm
@okie,
I am actually in sympathy with everything you are saying, Okie. I do agree that government should not allow one business to take unfair advantage over another. The industries I am describing, however, do not compete with other businesses and rather benefit all. The reason that sweetheart deals exist though is that towns compete with other towns for those industries to locate to a particular place. All things being equal re cost of land, taxes etc., it is a no brainer that a business choosing a new location would pick the one near the airport, interstate, etc. where their employees would prefer to live, and Borger wouldn't even have been considered.

It is for that reason that I would oppose the federal government telling any community that they cannot sweeten the pot to lure new industry to their town. Maybe require it be by referendum--let the people vote on whether to allocate a tract of public land? Or better yet, when there isn't enough public land available to offer to everybody, let existing business owners make the call. (As a conservative I like to give the government no more power than it absolutely has to have.)

Because of differing experience and perceptions, I suspect we'll wind up agreeing to disagree on this one. But I do thank you for the exercise here as you have given me different perspectives that I did not have before and you are making me think through it much more in depth than I was doing before.

It always comes back to the principle of good intentions producing unintended bad conseequences. To me it seems that liberals think good intentions are sufficient (unless it involves a conservative), but conservatives almost always make the consequences more important than the intentions. Smile



Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Dec, 2008 02:49 pm
This was in my e-mail today. It is not sourced and I don't know how factual it is though I know at least some of it is true. But it embodies what I see as a true public servant:

Quote:
Harry Truman was a different kind of President He probably made as many important decisions regarding our nation's history as any of the other 42 Presidents. However, a measure of his greatness may rest on what he did after he left the White House.

The only asset he had when he died was the house he lived in, which was in Independence Missouri . His wife had inherited the house from her mother and other than their years in the White House, they lived their entire lives there.

When he retired from office in 1952, his income was a U.S. Army pension reported to have been $13,507.72 a year. Congress, noting that he was paying for his stamps and personally licking them, granted him an 'allowance' and, later, a retroactive pension of $25,000 per year.

After President Eisenhower was inaugurated, Harry and Bess drove home to Missouri by themselves. There were no Secret Service following them.

When offered corporate positions at large salaries, he declined, stating, "You don't want me. You want the office of the President, and that doesn't belong to me. It belongs to the American people and it's not for sale."

Even later, on May 6, 1971, when Congress was preparing to award him the Medal of Honor on his 87th birthday, he refused to accept it, writing, "I don't consider that I have done anything which should be the reason for any award, Congressional or otherwise."

As president he paid for all of his own travel expenses and food.

Modern politicians have found a new level of success in cashing in on the Presidency, resulting in untold wealth. Today, many in Congress also have found a way to become quite wealthy while enjoying the fruits of their offices. Political offices are now for sale.

Good old Harry Truman was correct when he observed, "My choices in life were either to be a piano player in a whore house or a politician. And to tell the truth, there's hardly any difference."
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Dec, 2008 04:08 pm
@Foxfyre,
I understand your reasoning. I have one more point. We would not dream of enticing a millionaire to move to a city by offering that millionaire not to have to pay property tax on his house, or to pay sales tax to the local taxing jurisdiction when he buys stuff retail, by reasoning that the guy will buy alot more stuff at local stores by virtue of being rich. We would refuse to give a sweetheart deal to a potential newcomer just to get him to move there, vs people that have lived there all of their lives and do not intend to move. We treat everyone equally, regardless of who they are or what their name is, in terms of paying personal property tax or sales tax. The same principle should apply to businesses.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Dec, 2008 07:34 pm
Foxfyre, I choose to interpret your argument to be an argument for what you think ought to be the meaning of the word uniform in the Constitution Article 1, Section 8, 1st paragraph. I make this choice because I cannot find any other federal tax application of that word preceding the adoption of the 16th Amendment which permits federal tax rates on any thing to vary depending on how many things are being taxed.

So now I'd rather debate the practical merits and demerits of permitting federal tax rates on any thing to vary depending on how many things are being taxed.

I think permitting the federal government to vary a tax rate on any thing depending on how many things are being taxed is discriminatory. It also invites corruption of our federal government. Varying tax rates on anything according to how many of those things are taxed invites our elected representatives to tax the hell out of the smaller group of wealthy voters in order to transfer their wealth to a larger group of less wealthy voters.

I also think Lord Woodhouselee (1747 " 1813), who wrote the following, is correct.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average of the world's greatest civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, and from dependency back to bondage."

For additional evidence, I suggest that over the next four years we both carefully examine that taxing behavior and its consequences.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2008 04:32 pm
@ican711nm,
To Ican and Okie, I do think we are in more agreement than disagreement on both the concept of uniformity re the tax code and business incentives. The devil is always in the details, of course, and it is only on one or two fine points of those details that we disagree. As each of you can be proved right as much as I am likely to be, I am willing to agree to disagree for now, but leave these topics open for possible ressurrection later as seems appropriate.

I won't agree with Thomas and Walter that somebody defining himself/herself as a libertarian cannot also define himself/herself conservative. Both seem to have run for the tall grass for now anyway.

But here is another observation by one of my favorite libertarians (small 'L') drawing a parallel between the Big 3 auto makers bailout and conservative insistance on competence and results versus the liberal propensity to think that good intentions are sufficient:

Quote:
Jewish World Review Dec. 17, 2008
Postponing reality
By Thomas Sowell

Some of us were raised to believe that reality is inescapable. But that just shows how far behind the times we are. Today, reality is optional. At the very least, it can be postponed.


Kids in school are not learning? Not a problem. Just promote them on to the next grade anyway. Call it "compassion," so as not to hurt their "self-esteem."


Can't meet college admissions standards after they graduate from high school? Denounce those standards as just arbitrary barriers to favor the privileged, and demand that exceptions be made.


Can't do math or science after they are in college? Denounce those courses for their rigidity and insensitivity, and create softer courses that the students can pass to get their degrees.


Once they are out in the real world, people with diplomas and degrees" but with no real education" can hit a wall. But by then the day of reckoning has been postponed for 15 or more years. Of course, the reckoning itself can last the rest of their lives.

Every weekday NewsAndOpinion.com publishes what many in the media and Washington consider "must-reading". HUNDREDS of columnists and cartoonists regularly appear. Sign up for the daily update. It's free. Just click here.



The current bailout extravaganza is applying the postponement of reality democratically" to the rich as well as the poor, to the irresponsible as well as to the responsible, to the inefficient as well as to the efficient. It is a triumph of the non-judgmental philosophy that we have heard so much about in high-toned circles.


We are told that the collapse of the Big Three automakers in Detroit would have repercussions across the country, causing mass layoffs among firms that supply the automobile makers with parts, and shutting down automobile dealerships from coast to coast.


A renowned economist of the past, J.A. Schumpeter, used to refer to progress under capitalism as "creative destruction"" the replacement of businesses that have outlived their usefulness with businesses that carry technological and organizational creativity forward, raising standards of living in the process.


Indeed, this is very much like what happened a hundred years ago, when that new technological wonder, the automobile, wreaked havoc on all the forms of transportation built up around horses.


For thousands of years, horses had been the way to go, whether in buggies or royal coaches, whether pulling trolleys in the cities or plows on the farms. People had bet their futures on something with a track record of reliable success going back many centuries.


Were all these people to be left high and dry? What about all the other people who supplied the things used with horses" oats, saddles, horse shoes and buggies? Wouldn't they all go falling like dominoes when horses were replaced by cars?


Unfortunately for all the good people who had in good faith gone into all the various lines of work revolving around horses, there was no compassionate government to step in with a bailout or a stimulus package.


They had to face reality, right then and right there, without even a postponement.


Who would have thought that those who displaced them would find themselves in a similar situation a hundred years later?


Actually the automobile industry is not nearly in as bad a situation now as the horse-based industries were then. There is no replacement for the automobile anywhere on the horizon. Nor has the public decided to do without cars indefinitely.


While Detroit's Big Three are laying off thousands of workers, Toyota is hiring thousands of workers right here in America, where a substantial share of all our Toyotas are manufactured.


Will this save Detroit or Michigan? No.


Detroit and Michigan have followed classic liberal policies of treating businesses as prey, rather than as assets. They have helped kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. So have the unions. So have managements that have gone along to get along.


Toyota, Honda and other foreign automakers are not heading for Detroit, even though there are lots of experienced automobile workers there. They are avoiding the rust belts and the policies that have made those places rust belts.


A bailout of Detroit's Big Three would be only the latest in the postponements of reality. As for automobile dealers, they can probably sell Toyotas just as easily as they sold Chevvies. And Toyotas will require just as many tires per car, as well as other parts from automobile parts suppliers.
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell121708.php3
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2008 07:47 pm
@Foxfyre,
Yes, I agree with you that we are "in more agreement than disagreement on both the concept of uniformity re the tax code and business incentives."

My solution for the collapse of our educational system, especially in poor neighborhoods, is to grant all parents who request them, education vouchers to pay for what they perceive is a better education of their children in private schools. The ensuing competition between government and private schools will lead to both improving over time.

A typical counter argument is that such vouchers will reduce badly needed public school funds. True! But such a system will also reduce the amount of those funds badly needed because of the voucher reduced number of students enrolled in public schools. In the extreme, if the parents of all students in a particular public school were to be given vouchers for all their children in that public school, that public school would no longer need any public funding.

My solution for the collapse of the loan market is to close Fanny and Freddy and auction off such resources as it still has. Better Fanny and Freddy declare bankruptsy than other members of the loan market.

My solution for the collapse of GM, Ford, and Chrysler, is allow them to declare bankruptsy and restructure their organizations, including their labor costs.. It is now well known that in a previous year Toyota and GM sold the same number of cars, but in that year Toyota made a profit while GM lost money.

I think it now unconstitutional for the feds to financially baleout any private institution. By that I mean that the Constitution does not delegate to the feds the power to do that. The solution is either amend the Constitution per its Article V, or bankrupt Fanny and Freddy--an illegal federal concoction--and let the private sector solve its own problems, while the feds do their primary job of securing our rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

I'm opposed to such an amendment, because it sets the feds up with the power to take over----that is, nationalize-- pivate businesses despite the fact that the feds are not competent--whether well intended or not-- to manage them effectively.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  0  
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2008 09:30 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

To Ican and Okie, I do think we are in more agreement than disagreement

Agreed, and even when we disagree, the discussion is reasoned and civil. I respect all of your opinions. And as usual, Thomas Sowell is right on.

Education, all you have to know is how much we are spending per child, and it is immediately obvious the system is totally screwed up. Alot of kids would learn more without school than they learn with it. I think we could go back to neighborhood schools, one or two room schools for K through 4 or 5 or something like that, hire a good teacher or two, and you could buy each kid a computer, build the schools, and have money left over. Tell Washington to get out of the picture, totally get rid of the Federal Department of Education. That would be a start. Give money back to the parents to educate their own children.
0 Replies
 
Fountofwisdom
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jan, 2009 08:39 pm
Is bailing out the banks a conservative idea? I thought thats what marxists do? You'll be having the state prop up car manufacturers instead of letting them go bust next.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2009 05:03 pm
@Fountofwisdom,
Nothing in the USA Constitution as Amended grants any of the three branches of the federal government the power to use any of the taxes that government collects from the public to act as a public charity. In particular, the federal government is currently violating the Constitution by bailing out private banks and manufacturers, and by loaning money to private citizens.

We conservatives are no more a homogeneous group all thinking the same, than are liberals a homogeneous group all thinking the same.

What I want is conservation of the rule of law as legally adopted in accord with the Constitution, which was was itself legally adopted and legally amended. In particular, I want to conserve our Constitution that states it "shall be the supreme law of the land" (Article VI, 2nd paragraph).
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2009 10:32 am
Quote:
"The party is teetering on the edge of complete anarchy," said one senior Republican strategist. The source added that the race to date has "divided a party that desperately needs to add not subtract."
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thefix/2009/01/indecision_roils_rnc_race.html?hpid=news-col-blog

I done warned ya.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2009 10:44 am
@Fountofwisdom,
Fountofwisdom wrote:

Is bailing out the banks a conservative idea? I thought thats what marxists do? You'll be having the state prop up car manufacturers instead of letting them go bust next.



No, bailing out the banks is NOT a conservative idea. Certainly it is not a conservative idea in the way that it has been done. Conservatism understands that it is a role of government to defend the people from enemies within and without and that would include enacting and enforcing laws prohibiting the greedy from cheating and stealing from the unsuspecting. A certain amount of regulation toward that end is necessary.

But conservatism does not prevent those from failing when effort or effectiveness is lacking. And conservatism does not encourage, reward, or prevent consequences for irresponsible behavior and it knows that patches that prevent inevitable consequences for the short term are generally in themselves irresponsible.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.12 seconds on 01/10/2025 at 06:22:27