55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2008 11:40 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Again, how does that not make Williams a conservative? I also describe myself as mostly a conservative libertarian which is probably why I am usually so sympatico with Williams' concepts. I am asking YOU to explain your view that Williams is not a conservative.


Well, I try it.


There are libertarians. Some of those are more to the left, others more conservative and right leaning.


There are conservatives. Some more to the left (which makes them 'center-leaning'), others more to the right (which makes them "extreme-right-leaning").


Then you have (from center to the extreme left) Social Democrats, Socialists and the various types of Communists.



Especially between Libertarians you find all colours of the political spectrum - one of the main features which makes them "Libertarians".

That you think that you are a "conservative libertarian" ...

Well, never mind.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2008 11:42 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
So I am asking YOU to explain your apparent view that Williams is not a conservative.



Again: I don't and didn't write anything about THAT: I was responding to "conservative LIBERTARIAN".
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2008 11:46 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
So I am asking YOU to explain your apparent view that Williams is not a conservative.



Again: I don't and didn't write anything about THAT: I was responding to "conservative LIBERTARIAN".


So what problem do you have with how Williams' describes himself? Again the label does not determine his ideology but rather what he says. What he says, however, does provide a very strong basis for how he describes himself. Why does this bother you so much?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2008 11:49 am
@Foxfyre,
About 80% of Americans claim to be christians. CLUE: It doesn't matter what people claim to be.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2008 11:56 am
@cicerone imposter,
When I claim to be a Christian, however, that says something about who I am and what I believe. That is understood far more accurately by another Christian, however, than it is understood by a non-Christian.

Perhaps that is true of conservatives and non-conservatives too. I am beginning to think that non-conservatives are incapable of accurately comprehending conservatism which would explain why so much of the liberals' participation on this thread consists of obfusication, ad hominem, straw men, and diversion.

What do you think?

And to everybody, what do you think about what Williams said?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2008 11:58 am
@Foxfyre,
It only shows what you believe. That other christians understand what "you" mean is meaningless. Conservatism like christianity has many "believers," but that does't prove anything.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2008 11:58 am
@cicerone imposter,
What would prove something to you CI? How do any of us prove who we are here other than by how we describe ourselves? I asked Parados the same question. How does one prove he or she is a conservative? If you don't like the definitions previously provided for what we conservatives mean by conservatism, please provide your own definition.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2008 12:01 pm
And question for everybody: Do you agree with Williams' opinion in his essay? Why or why not?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2008 12:04 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

Again, how does that not make Williams a conservative? I also describe myself as mostly a conservative libertarian which is probably why I am usually so sympatico with Williams' concepts. I am asking YOU to explain your view that Williams is not a conservative.


Well, I try it.


There are libertarians. Some of those are more to the left, others more conservative and right leaning.


There are conservatives. Some more to the left (which makes them 'center-leaning'), others more to the right (which makes them "extreme-right-leaning").


Then you have (from center to the extreme left) Social Democrats, Socialists and the various types of Communists.



Especially between Libertarians you find all colours of the political spectrum - one of the main features which makes them "Libertarians".

That you think that you are a "conservative libertarian" ...

Well, never mind.


No, you brought it up so I will mind. Yes Williams describes himself as a conservative libertarian. (Little 'L') I describe myself as a conservative libertarian.

Please provide any notion you hold that either of us are mis-labeling ourselves or we are not what we claim to be.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2008 12:05 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
Perhaps that is true of conservatives and non-conservatives too. I am beginning to think that non-conservatives are incapable of accurately comprehending conservatism which would explain why so much of the liberals' participation on this thread consists of obfusication, ad hominem, straw men, and diversion.



Straw man.

Quote:

What do you think?


I already told you what I think; you have no concept about political or religious belief other than your myopic views of them.

Quote:
And to everybody, what do you think about what Williams said?


I do not arrive at conclusions from reading one writer's opinions or beliefs.

Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2008 12:06 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I didn't ask for conclusions. I asked for your thoughts. But I accept that you don't think. That's cool.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2008 12:10 pm
@Foxfyre,
How anyone describes themselves does not in any describe everybody just because they claim something.

I describe myself as being an Independent politically, but that doesn't say anything about all the other people who describe themselves as an "Independent." My choice for president will differ for different reasons based on my personal observations. I cannot arrive at any conclusions for other Independents, because their observations and conclusions will differ.

Comprende?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2008 12:10 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Please provide any notion you hold that either of us are mis-labeling ourselves or we are not what we claim to be.


Certainly you are a conservative, on the farer right end to be precise.
Your economic ideas are similar to those of libertarians - if not the same.
But: that might be so with any conservative or libertarian.


Your ideas about religion, marriage, abortion, immigration etc etc totally exclude that someone can call you libertarian.
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2008 12:16 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

When I claim to be a Christian, however, that says something about who I am and what I believe. That is understood far more accurately by another Christian, however, than it is understood by a non-Christian.

I was a Christian once. I've stepped in that ring. So have many people here. You can't tell others that they don't understand it because they are on the outside. Being a Christian does say something about who you are. Perhaps you aren't prepared for what it says and how it is different than what you say about yourself.
Foxfyre wrote:

Perhaps that is true of conservatives and non-conservatives too. I am beginning to think that non-conservatives are incapable of accurately comprehending conservatism which would explain why so much of the liberals' participation on this thread consists of obfusication, ad hominem, straw men, and diversion.

By this same logic you would not be able to understand liberalism/progressivism unless you a liberal or progressive. You see conservatism is being perfect. I won't claim liberalism is perfect. I prefer nuance to universalism.

Some people have great eyesight, others are far sighted or near sighted. you are so close to conservatism and yet you don't seem to see what so many others see. You like to focus on the liberals so far away and seem to believe that many moderates people are quite liberal.

Foxfyre wrote:

What do you think?

Your vision is bad both near and far. You need bifocals dear.

To your credit though, there is some truth in what you say about proximity to a concept and one's understanding. We tend to put things in terms of what we understand, which does mean sometimes we fail to comprehend some things.

It's not that you understand conservatism better than others, it's that you don't understand the alternatives.

E.g.

A woman's car breaks down. Her car is towed to a garage. She explains that the car stopped running while she was driving. The mechanic opens the hood of the car, walks a lap around the car gliding his hand around the body. The mechanic then looks at the woman.

"You don't have any gas in the car."
"I don't need gas."
"Cars need gas."
"Not this one. It's an electric car."
"Listen lady, I do this for a living. Cars need gas."

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2008 12:32 pm
@Foxfyre,
No, He doesn't zero in on my problem unless you are presenting this as evidence you are ill informed.

My problem Fox, is that you haven't provided any support for your opinions.

I realize your inability to understand probably puts you in the 50% that can't state the argument made in a column. There is a difference between being able to understand an argument and recognizing that an argument is not well supported. Mr Williams argument about why it is bad that much of America is ignorant is supported by facts and figures. Your arguments about what conservatives believe are vague and not supported by anything other than your opinion.

Williams first 5 paragraphs are nothing but support that leads to his conclusion. He doesn't make a statement then run away from it. He leads to the conclusion by presenting information on why he came to that conclusion.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2008 12:49 pm
@parados,
Same as the bible; it makes claims that cannot be backed by any outside evidence except the bible. It puts out a proposition, than supports it with miracles and burning bushes. The real miracle is that so many believe in it.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2008 12:53 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:



So it is the concepts themselves that is important. Williams' words in the essay back up the label with which he describes himself.

No, his argument doesn't back up his being a conservative at all.

It is bad that America is ignorant about history is not a conservative/liberal issue. Liberals are not for ignorance.

Williams and I might disagree about what is constitutional for Congress to do but neither of us think Congress should be allowed to pass unconstitutional laws. Williams never states what he thinks is unconstitutional so he doesn't present it as a "conservative" viewpoint.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2008 01:02 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

Please provide any notion you hold that either of us are mis-labeling ourselves or we are not what we claim to be.


Certainly you are a conservative, on the farer right end to be precise.
Your economic ideas are similar to those of libertarians - if not the same.
But: that might be so with any conservative or libertarian.


Your ideas about religion, marriage, abortion, immigration etc etc totally exclude that someone can call you libertarian.


I disagree. I do not see myself as on the far right side of conservatism; in fact quite the opposite. Walter Williams and Thomas Sowell (another who describes himself as a conservative liberatarian) share my views on marriage, abortion, and immigration. It is those views that are conservative, not the label itself. As for religion I'm pretty sure you don't have much clue re most of my religious views and I am very sure I have no clue about whatever religious views Williams and Sowell might hold.

What religious views do you think a libertarian holds anyway? What of mine would get me kicked out of the libertarian club?

Remember we are using liberatarian as an adjective (little "L") and not in the sense of the platform of the American Libertarian Party which is a different subject..
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2008 01:09 pm
@Foxfyre,
Waited too long to edit....but I meant to ask how you think the views on marriage, abortion, or immigration are also contrary to libertarianism?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2008 01:24 pm
@Foxfyre,
I suppose, I'm too uneducated to follow the various, different differences between political ideas with small types and capital letters, same terms as everyone else uses but that have different meanings for you (and/or the USA), ...

I'm just not sophisticated enough with bad European education to follow here.

I'm clueless - to give you a pleasure.

As The Lord said: si omnes scandalizati fuerint in te ego numquam scandalizabor.
0 Replies
 
 

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