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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2010 01:20 pm
@ican711nm,
The increased spending by Obama saved our banking system. It also helped those who lost jobs get extended unemployment benefits.

Increased federal spending did not increase unemployment. "Threatened increase to federal taxes" doesn't mean much; you have nothing in history to provide proof of your statement that "threats" are harmful to anything except to conservative's.

All they talk about is "cut taxes," but have never provided any solutions for our economy. Cut taxes now, and it only increases our national debt that results in higher interest payments for our government that takes away from other necessary spending by our government.

Where do you want to cut government spending? Please provide us with some details.

-
okie
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2010 01:39 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
Where do you want to cut government spending? Please provide us with some details.

ican can speak for himself, but just to remind you, I have offered details. How about your solutions, do you have any at all?
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2010 01:49 pm
@okie,
It works for me. What % of the folks who have become unemployed over the past two year came from the public sector? I have no idea, but I doubt it's very high.
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2010 02:15 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

It works for me. What % of the folks who have become unemployed over the past two year came from the public sector? I have no idea, but I doubt it's very high.


Yeah - it is a significant percentage, mostly from the State and Local level -

http://online.barrons.com/article/SB50001424052970203599504575536001934032176.html

Easily found by a ten-second google search.

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2010 02:20 pm
@okie,
I have already offered my "solutions" for this economy. We all know your memory is nonexistent, so I won't bother repeating them.
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2010 02:27 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
My search through BLS tables took quite a bit more than 10 seconds.
The temporary census workers have come and gone. There was an increase in Fed employees followed by a decline.
Over 12 months, local governments (excluding, for some reason, education in the BLS numbers) have reduced employment levels by 123,000 with 14,000 in October.
I don't know how that comes out as a %. I was able to see only the 1st part of the article Cyclo cited.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2010 02:33 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Your link is subscription only after the first few paragraphs.

Here's one that's available without subscription.

Quote:
The final chart below shows the average unemployment since December 2007 for government workers (3%) and private-sector workers (7.9%), so the private sector has faced a jobless rate more than twice as high as the rate for government workers over the last several years.
Source

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/S3FkPztm63I/AAAAAAAAMtw/FaWsAuOuc48/s400/unratesgovpriv.jpg

Those data represent 2008-9, yours appears to be the one-month statistics for non-farm labor.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2010 02:39 pm
@JPB,
Quote:
Yours is subscription only after the first few paragraphs.


Wow, really? It gave me the whole article, but I don't have a subscription. There is significant discussion later in the article regarding public employment losses at the State and Local level.

Sorry bout that.

Rather than looking at 'average unemployment rate - what does that even mean? - can we find a graph or chart of total job losses by sector? I'm not claiming that the Public sector has lost more jobs, but that they are a significant percentage of jobs lost.

Let's look at a graph of jobs this year:

http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/conservarecovery.jpg

And here's Yglesias analysing the trend:

Quote:
In a normal year, government employment goes up. After all, the population is growing so providing the same quantity of public services requires more personnel. At the same time, the workforce is growing so it’s possible for the economy to support a larger quantity of public sector workers. And you would assume that during a period of allegedly explosive growth in the size and scope of government, that public sector employment would increase by an unusually large amount. Instead, it fell.

Which is to say that conservatives have been getting the kind of economic recovery they say they want. The private sector is growing and the public sector is shrinking.

I say: the net impact of this has been terrible. They say: what? I don’t know. Generally they deny that it’s even happening. But is the conservative line that had we laid off more government workers the private sector would have both picked up all that slack and also created even more extra jobs on top of that? My view is that that’s backwards. The best time to seek to streamline the public sector is when the private economy is humming along. When the economy is growing strongly, if you lay off a janitor at the DMV he can get a job as a janitor at the new office building across the street. When the economy is growing, if the state lays off an accountant then the manufacturing firm across town might hire a new accountant. But when the economy is weak, you lay off the janitor and it takes him 12 months to find a new job. During that time, all the stores he used to shop at have lost a customer. And all those lost customers are a drag on the entire value chain of manufacturing, shipping, and retailing of goods. That, in turn, makes it harder for laid off workers to find new jobs further delaying the pace of transition.

To me, that’s what’s happening here. But what do conservatives think? They don’t even seem able to acknowledge that government is shrinking.


Laying off increasing numbers of government workers during a time when we have a huge amount of people out of work is completely and totally foolish. Yet Okie and other Republicans here say that this is EXACTLY what should be done. I can't believe that an ounce of actual logical thought has been put into this by them.

Cycloptichorn
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2010 02:45 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Here's one that is closer to the question I asked but still not exactly what I was looking for...

http://biggovernment.com/files/2010/02/Public-Private-Unemployment.jpg

The text that goes with that chart...
Quote:
In this chart, I compare seasonally adjusted unemployment rates across segments of the economy, dividing these segments using the super-categories designated by the Bureau of Labor Statistics. The chart compares the unemployment rates in January of 2009 (blue) with the unemployment rates in these same sectors a year later (yellow). (FYI, the difference would be even more dramatic if I had used not seasonally adjusted data)

In both years, the unemployment rate within the government has been small relative to the level of unemployment within the entire economy, and particularly so relative to the private sector. In the course of a year, government employment has decreased by 296,000 jobs to 4.3% unemployment; during the same period, employment in the private, non-agricultural, sector has decreased by 2.3 million jobs to 11.1%. (And if you look at not seasonally adjusted unemployment data, the lose of private jobs reached 3.1 million and the lose of public jobs is roughly 70,000. That’s quite a gap.)
Source

Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2010 02:49 pm
@JPB,
See my update to the post above, after you posted this.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2010 02:52 pm
@JPB,
aha! From the same link

Quote:
From January 2009 to January 2010, plummeting employment has been concentrated in the private sector. During the time period examined, employment in the private sector decreased by 3.5% while employment within government decreased by 0.5%. Furthermore, employment has consistently decreased more quickly in the private sector than within the government (in addition to decreasing more on net). Since January 2009, employment has decreased in the private sector at an average rate of 0.3% each month; this is 6 times faster than employment has decreased in government.

Not only has unemployment been concentrated in the private sector within the past year, it has been concentrated disproportionately so. When measured as a percentage of GDP, government accounted for roughly a quarter of GDP. Conversely, unemployment in the government sector accounted for 5.9% of the increase in the economy’s total unemployment which has occurred in the past year. In contrast, job losses in the non-agricultural private sector have accounted for 81.3% of the total increase in unemployment.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2010 02:56 pm
@JPB,
The dates Jan. 2009-Jan. 2010 appear to have been carefully chosen by De Rugy (who I am well familiar with through her persistently false writing at the National Review - couldn't you find someone slightly less partisan?) to highlight the point in question. The chart I posted above clearly shows that over the last 12 months, the private sector has added over a million jobs, while the public sector has lost 250k.

Cycloptichorn
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2010 03:04 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
And how do those compare to the number of total jobs in each sector? How many of those losses were Federal gov't jobs? I know a gain is a gain and a loss is a loss, and we may be seeing public sector unemployment trailing private (similar to unemployment in general trailing an economic recovery), but the idea that gov't would streamline itself when the economy is humming along is ludicrous.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2010 03:13 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

And how do those compare to the number of total jobs in each sector? How many of those losses were Federal gov't jobs? I know a gain is a gain and a loss is a loss, and we may be seeing public sector unemployment trailing private (similar to unemployment in general trailing an economic recovery), but the idea that gov't would streamline itself when the economy is humming along is ludicrous.


Most of the jobs lost are in State and Local governments, whose budgets have been hit really hard by the recession. They can't just print more money like the Feds can.

Why is it ludicrous, to say that jobs should be cut from government when things are going good? You may claim that the government won't do it then, but I think you'd have a hard time showing that it SHOULDN'T do it then.

Claims that the government should be cutting jobs in the middle of a recession are equally ludicrous, but that seems to be taken as a good idea by you guys. How do you defend the logic behind that? It helps nothing while adding to the problem.

Cycloptichorn
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2010 03:18 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
I'm always in favor of cutting Federal gov't jobs. I'm also in favor of cutting the size of my State government. I have direct input into my local government and how big it gets to grow. I have absolutely no opinion whatsoever what other folks should do at their State and local level.

In this case, I'm in favor of cutting salaries for Federal employees to bring them in line with what is being paid at the private sector.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2010 03:26 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

I'm always in favor of cutting Federal gov't jobs.


This is silly - it's like ALWAYS being in favor of cutting taxes, no matter what the finacial situation is. It's not a serious position.

Quote:
I'm also in favor of cutting the size of my State government. I have direct input into my local government and how big it gets to grow. I have absolutely no opinion whatsoever what other folks should do at their State and local level.

In this case, I'm in favor of cutting salaries for Federal employees to bring them in line with what is being paid at the private sector.


I should point out that the public vs. private sector pay scales are heavily influenced by the DoD contractors. If you removed them from the picture, the two are much more equal. I'm hunting up a link to that now.

I haven't forgotten about our discussion re: the goals of the Ryan roadmap, but I got busy and didn't respond the other day. I'd like to move that convo to either this thread or the 'new House Republican majority' thread if that's cool with you.

Cycloptichorn
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2010 03:29 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
Where do you want to cut [federal] government spending? Please provide us with some details.

CUT:
Fannie & Freddie
TARP
Stimulus
Federal Government Provided
-- Ear Marks
-- Redistribution of Wealth
-- Government Employment
-- Public & Private School Funding
-- Private Medical Care
-- Private Retirement
-- Private Charity
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  2  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2010 03:30 pm
@JPB,
That has also already happened. There are tables and public sector job comparisons that determine federal government raises/ COLA each year. Bush gave raises to federal employees of 3% and 4%.

Obama has held federal employee annual raises below what they were supposed to get (2.0), asking them to help bear some of the pain of the recession. http://www.fedsmith.com/article/1887/president-asks-federal-employees-sacrifice-proposes-pay.html

Note tht the raises come at the first of the year as determined from the previous Fall, so the 2004- 2009 raises were under Bush. 2010 was the first one under Obama.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2010 03:33 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
I'd much rather see services supported at the State and Local level, because they're supported at a level that people are willing to pay for. As you said, these folks don't get to crank up the printing presses the way the Feds can. I don't like deficit spending. I don't like buying things on credit that we can't afford - whether that's at the individual, community, or federal level.

Move the Roadmap discussion wherever you want it. I'll be scarce for the next few days, but I'll track it down on Monday.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2010 03:34 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
I think the subject is being debated on perhaps a too abstract and generalized plane. A lot depends on what the new or added government employees may be doing. New regulators adding ever more top down bureaucratic direction to ever wider sectors of our economy will stifle private sector economic growth, not substitute for it. Adding $16 billion of annual cost to the IRS to enable it to police the enforcement of health insurance mandates won't make more medical care avbailable to anyone. It will simply add to the non-productive overhead in our economy. The money borrowed by the Treasury to pay for it will draw from a credit source that might otherwise add new meaningful economic activity that would indirectly benefit everyone.

I agree that state & local governments do have a greater problem. Their largely unionized employees exercise far too much political influence through state legislators who are sustained by union contributions and who have in turn voted truly unsustainable salary health and pension benefits to state employees. Worse the cronyism and slack management of these systems by legislators and state managers have enabled gross violations of the pay and retirement standards that were enacted. In California we have seen a stream of small town Fire Chiefs retiring at age 55 with $200,000 annual pensions (driven up by accumulated vacation and a system that bases retirement compensation on the final year's pay), and widespread early "disability" retirements among prision guards and others. Of course there are also gross extortions such as those that occurred in Bell California, probably involving criminal behavior among elected officials.
 

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