55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Oct, 2010 09:12 pm
@cicerone imposter,
When did I mention minimum wages?

BTW, do you have any idea how many Ph.D.s are working for $8.50 an hour? There is a man working as a cashier at a Stop and Shop store who holds a doctorate from the Harvard Divinity School.

I suggest that neither you nor MM really have an idea who works in retail and what they are paid. The starting salary for retail in MA is $8.50. It is less in other states, including states in which the sales tax is higher (meaning the cost of buying is greater). Smaller businesses do not offer raises and larger ones usually take advantage of the fact that employees are all "at will" to fire them
before they would be given raises.

Three of the people with whom I work are adjuncts. I'm at a community college but the other two work at U-Mass and Mt. Holyoke.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Oct, 2010 11:31 pm
@plainoldme,
I mentioned minimum wage.

There are many stories of people with higher education working for minimum wage. I worked in retail.

I was controller of a retail business, and I designed their standard cost system, and implemented their manual booking system onto computerized system.

Working in journalism or a community college doesn't make you an expert in everything - and certainly not the retail business.
mysteryman
 
  0  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2010 05:53 am
@plainoldme,
Quote:
How do you know that? I suggest that you know no one well and are making an assumption. Managers work long hours. 60 hours/week is expected of managers who are salaried. In fact, a young woman I worked with when we were both hourly employees turned down the assistant manager's job when it was offered to her because she would lose money (she based her computations on the hourly wage multiplied by the 60 hours she would work as an assistant manager).

I have lived in several states and no one in any of them ever worked a 40 hour week as a clerk


So now you are suggesting who I know or dont know?
Thats pretty presumptuous on your part, dont you think?
Since you refuse to take my word for it, how do you expect me to take your word for it?
Since you have never lived here in Union County, why do you presume to know how life is here?
I have never lived in Bangor, so if someone from there tells me what the cost of living is there, or what houses cost there, or what jobs are like there, I would accept their word for it until I found out otherwise.

Quote:
2.) There is no such thing as a 40-hour week for people below management in retail with the possible exception of Christmas rush. Even then, stores hire extra employees. Your $330 gross simply does not exist.


I submit that you have no idea what you are talking about.
Maybe in your area there is not a 40 hour week for retail employees, but your area is not the entire country.
I suggest that you come to Union County (which is where I am basing my examples on, because its where I live. Also, because I knows the economy here.)
You would find that there is much about the local economy that you dont know, and that you cant use your hometown as a window to view the entire nation thru.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2010 06:51 am
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

"THEY THAT CAN GIVE UP ESSENTIAL LIBERTY TO PURCHASE A LITTLE TEMPORARY SAFETY DESERVE NEITHER LIBERTY OR SAFETY." -- Benjamin Franklin

Ah yes ican.. And tell us again why we should allow the government to listen in on communication without a warrant?
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2010 07:42 am
@parados,
One of the prices of preserving our essential liberty is to permit government to listen in on our international communications without a warrant, in order to detect those planning to terrorize us (e.g., mass murder us) and thereby deprive us of our essential liberty.

Maintaining the privacy of our international communications is therefore not maintaining an essential liberty.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2010 08:08 am
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

Maintaining the privacy of our international communications is therefore not maintaining an essential liberty.



So free speech is "naturally" limited if directed outside geographical and/or political borders?


An interesting approach.

What, when someone communicates with a non-US-citizen inside the USA?
Or, with an US-citizen about international affairs?


Ha, that's the reason why "International" isn't published broadly in most US print media. Correct, ican?
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2010 10:07 am
@Walter Hinteler,
ican711nm wrote:
One of the prices of preserving our essential liberty is to permit government to listen in on our international communications without a warrant, in order to detect those planning to terrorize us (e.g., mass murder us) and thereby deprive us of our essential liberty.

Maintaining the privacy of our international communications is therefore not maintaining an essential liberty.

Walter Hinteler wrote:
So free speech is "naturally" limited if directed outside geographical and/or political borders?

NO!

Free international speech is not limited by not maintaining its privacy. Only the privacy of free international speech is not maintained by not maintaining its privacy.
Quote:

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


Monitoring communications does not constitute any unreasonable searches and seizures. Furthermore, prohibiting the privacy of speech does not constitute abridging the freedom of speech. Certainly, the speech in the media--television, radio, newspapers, magazines, pamphlets, public speeches, etc.--is free while certainly not private.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2010 10:10 am
@ican711nm,
Quote:
Monitoring communications does not constitute any unreasonable searches and seizures.


Yes, it absolutely does. The courts have universally agreed that modern electronic communications - through telephone or internet - are the equivalent of 'papers and effects' and are not subject to search or seizure without a pre-existing court warrant.

Quote:
Furthermore, prohibiting the privacy of speech does not constitute abridging the freedom of speech.


Absolutely wrong.

Quote:
Certainly, the speech in the media--television, radio, newspapers, magazines, pamphlets, public speeches, etc.--is free while certainly not private.


Once again, absolutely wrong. The public airwaves and methods of transmission, as opposed to private ones, are not free speech zones but Regulated speech zones.

Cycloptichorn
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2010 11:16 am
@Cycloptichorn,
VALID LOGIC IS SUPERIOR TO ALLEGED OPINION.

The monitoring of or listening to communications does not constitute any unreasonable searches and seizures, regardless of what the courts have allegedly said.

Furthermore, it is absolutely RIGHT that prohibiting the privacy of some kinds of speech does not constitute abridging the freedom of that speech.

Certainly, the speech in the media--television, radio, newspapers, magazines, pamphlets, public speeches, AND OTHER SPEECH ZONES WHETHER REGULATED OR NOT--is free while certainly not private. It is free because the speaker is not prohibited from saying or posting what he wants to say as long as it is not slanderous or libelous.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2010 11:18 am
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

VALID LOGIC IS SUPERIOR TO ALLEGED OPINION.

The monitoring of or listening to communications does not constitute any unreasonable searches and seizures, regardless of what the courts have allegedly said.


Fortunately for us, the Courts are empowered in our society to make such distinctions, and YOU are not empowered to do so.

Quote:
Furthermore, it is absolutely RIGHT that prohibiting the privacy of some kinds of speech does not constitute abridging the freedom of that speech.


There's no logical basis to support this assertion.

Quote:
Certainly, the speech in the media--television, radio, newspapers, magazines, pamphlets, public speeches, AND OTHER SPEECH ZONES WHETHER REGULATED OR NOT--is free while certainly not private. It is free because the speaker is not prohibited from saying or posting what he wants to say as long as it is not slanderous or libelous.


The FCC disagrees with you on that one. Speech and content on television and the airwaves is REGULATED, Ican - it is not 'free.'

I just don't understand how you reconcile your wacky opinions with the reality of our modern world. I'm serious about this. Do you pretend that these things just don't matter, or that the FCC somehow doesn't exist? I don't see how you could know if its' existence and at the same time claim that they don't regulate speech.

Cycloptichorn
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2010 11:34 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I just don't understand how you reconcile your wacky opinions with the reality of our modern world. I'm serious about this. Do you pretend that these things just don't matter, or that the FCC somehow doesn't exist? I don't see how you could know if its' existence and at the same time claim that they don't regulate speech.


Truth is truth regardless of what you or anyone else happen to think. Words mean what words mean regardless of what you or anyone else happen to think. What matters is what is actually true, not what people actually believe is true.

There are a huge number of incidents where what populations thought was true at the moment--hour, day, year, century, millenia--determines what is true. It does not. There are a huge number of examples of popular beliefs being subsequently proven false.

Most of the beliefs you, Cyclo, express here are false! They are false regardless of how many or what people agree with you.

Prove that denial of the privacy of a communication denies the freedom of making that communication.
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2010 11:38 am
Quote:

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=19858&utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=DPD
John Maynard Keynes, R.I.P.
The basic Keynesian stimulus argument goes something like this: If the federal government engages in deficit spending during a recession, the added government expenditures (unaccompanied by tax increases) will boost "aggregate demand." Greater federal spending on a road, for instance, will create jobs for construction workers, who can then spend their additional income on, say, bread. Bakers now will have more to spend on, say, cars and so on, says Richard B. McKenzie, a professor in the Merage School of Business at the University of California, Irvine.

National income stimulated by the initial government road project can grow by some multiple of the expenditure, Keynes' theory says. A stimulus package (and budget deficit) of $1 trillion would morph into a minimum of $1.5 trillion in additional national income -- maybe even into $4 trillion or $10 trillion.

But if it sounds too good to be true, it is, says McKenzie.

If such income growth were possible, the country would be awash in prosperity, given that the federal government increased the national debt by $1.88 trillion in fiscal 2009 and could run deficits of $1.6 trillion and $1.3 trillion in fiscal 2010 and 2011, respectively.

Between 2012 and 2015 it will add at least another $3 trillion to the national debt.

As economist Milton Friedman observed, when the government engages in deficit spending, it must borrow the extra funds from someone who could have spent them on private-sector projects. Thus, an increase in government spending could be totally offset by a decrease in private spending, as lendable funds are diverted from private to government uses. The net effect can be no net increase in aggregate demand -- and no multiplier effect. Indeed, with the inevitable waste in government stimulus projects, the multiplier effect could as easily be negative as positive, says McKenzie.

Source: Richard B. McKenzie, "John Maynard Keynes, R.I.P.," Freeman, October 2010.

Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2010 11:41 am
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:


The monitoring of or listening to communications does not constitute any unreasonable searches and seizures, regardless of what the courts have allegedly said.


I've dealt a lot of my life time with persons who acted "regardless of what the courts have allegedly said" - as a probation officer and as a social worker in prisons.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2010 11:50 am
@ican711nm,
Quote:
Most of the beliefs you, Cyclo, express here are false! They are false regardless of how many or what people agree with you.


So, if EVERYONE who is an authority or who has studied a subject agrees that words (and the Law) mean a certain thing, and you disagree, YOU are right and THEY are wrong?

That's a ridiculous view, and that's why the country trusts the Courts to make decisions, and not extremely wacko right-wing partisans typing away furiously on their keyboards. You of course are free to hold whatever opinion you like, re: the validity of the SC and their decisions, but nobody cares about that opinion.

Quote:
Prove that denial of the privacy of a communication denies the freedom of making that communication.


If you cannot communicate in private, you cannot do any sort of business in America whatsoever. What you claim is that the government has the perfect right to tap into whatever business or political speech that they like, with no oversight whatsoever - all in the name of 'safety.' See, that's what you don't understand about the quote you copied above: tapping phone lines isn't a part of preserving FREEDOM but an attempt to preserve SAFETY. Terrorists don't attack freedom, they attack people. The only ones who attack freedom are you idiots who are so scared of terrorists, you're willing to give up rights.

The 4th amendment -

Quote:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


Our Constitution makes no exceptions for national security in this matter; the Courts must issue a Warrant based on probable cause for a crime being committed in every instance. The law is clear on this matter - no matter what you happen to personally believe.

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2010 11:52 am
@ican711nm,
Quote:
As economist Milton Friedman observed, when the government engages in deficit spending, it must borrow the extra funds from someone who could have spent them on private-sector projects.


Wrong, and there's zero evidence that this is the case we actually see. There's no evidence at all that the Stim bill lead to a lack of ability for private-sector projects to get off the ground, due to a lack of available funds or credit.

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2010 12:16 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
If Friendman made that claim, I also disagree with it. China and Japan are the two countries who have purchased US bonds the most, but we don't see them underfunding investments in capital. As for the US, we spend most of the borrowed money to support wars and social benefits that creates a large deficit. Private wealth, those with net worths over a billion dollars, doesn't seem to have helped our economy much during the past decade. Where are the jobs?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2010 03:26 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
There's no evidence at all that the Stim bill DID NOT lead to a lack of ability for private-sector projects to get off the ground, due to a lack of available funds or credit.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2010 03:54 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

There's no evidence at all that the Stim bill DID NOT lead to a lack of ability for private-sector projects to get off the ground, due to a lack of available funds or credit.


Actually, as the proponent of a position, the burden of proof lies upon you to provide evidence. It's fallacious for you to ask me to provide evidence for a shortage that doesn't exist.

If you believe your position is true, provide evidence showing that it is true - that projects couldn't get started, or businesses couldn't get loans or lines of credit, due to the monies borrowed for the STIMULUS bill. Specifically.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  0  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2010 06:00 pm
@cicerone imposter,
No, neither journalism or teaching does. However, I have worked in retail on and off throughout my life. Whenever I was between jobs or, after turning in my thesis and prior to commencement, when the economy was hot and I thought I would find work in publishing in 3 to 6 months, I took a retail job. During the able to know years, several righties accused me of being on welfare. IT is to laugh.

However, several of the respondents to this conversation chose to dis- a figure from the Census Bureau, which suggests to me that those posters think they have a better handle on the situation than the Census Bureau. Confused Really?

However, I do think that retail is pretty transparent. I hardly takes a genius to figure it out.
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2010 06:18 pm
@mysteryman,
And I suggest that you put on a sweater, take a deep breath and swift two mile walk. Jeez, Louise. Suggest all you want . . . it doesn't give me any confidence in you or make what you post more accurate.

People generally are not very forth coming about stating their wages. While it highly possible you heard someone grouse about working 40 hours and developing shin splints and bad knees because of it, I would doubt that anyone would be so forthcoming with you about their salaries and working conditions, particularly when you think most people go off to their jobs with an idiot smile on their faces, strewing rose petals behind them.

I needed a hair cut. One of the costs of employment is maintaining a reasonable level of grooming, something I could skip as a stay-at-home mom who could get away with a ponytail. Because I was downtown, I thought I would window shop a bit. Despite not having money, I went into two independently owned women's shops for the joy of looking at clothes. The youngish (25? 30?) clerk in one began to tell me how much she likes the dress shop as opposed to her other job in a bank (tellers were always poorly paid, albeit better paid than retail workers) because she could express herself through her clothes at the shop. I tell that story because so many people work two jobs. I have worked two and three at a time since 1997.

With one exception, everyone I work with at the liquor store receives fuel assistance. One woman, despite having two jobs and sharing house with five other people, is eligible for food stamps.

Now, during the 1980s, the talking heads that visited Lewis Rukeyser on Wall Street Week, heralded the coming of the service economy with lots of jobs for everyone. My father, who went to school through the 8th grade, said a service economy will never pay enough to support a single person, let alone a family. My ex-husband with a doctorate in chemistry said the same thing. The official word from the MA state house is that there were always enough jobs here, but they were poorly paying jobs in the service sector.

So, if folks in your county make enough to get by, that's fine. But i have provided a great deal of evidence to support what I say. You rely on your county and the 'people you know' but somehow have the chutzpah to say I am relying on word of mouth. Yeah, right.

Rather than thinking something is different about where you live, which you ought to have concluded, you hide your eyes from what seems to be the state of the nation.

As I am ready to tell you off, as I feel you well deserve, I will simply say that you have no right to tell me I don't know about my local economy when I have been campaigning on behalf of the older woman worker since 2000 and have appeared in papers and on television for my efforts.
0 Replies
 
 

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