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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
plainoldme
 
  0  
Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2010 09:12 am
@plainoldme,
This squib presents us with two sad facts:

The first being that the people that our Founders disregarded as human beings but imported to labor on their behalf could not be buried in some of the earliest European centered cities.

The second is no one is raising a hue and cry over the near presence of crass commercialism (Brooks Brothers and Century 21 Department Store) so close to this spiritual and patriotic site. Read the sarcasm that was intended.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2010 01:42 pm
@plainoldme,
plainoldme wrote:
... two sad facts:

The first being that the people that our Founders disregarded as human beings but imported to labor on their behalf could not be buried in some of the earliest European centered cities.

The second is no one is raising a hue and cry over the near presence of crass commercialism (Brooks Brothers and Century 21 Department Store) so close to this spiritual and patriotic site. Read the sarcasm that was intended.

"The first" relates to human slavery destroyed after December 6, 1865 by the Civil War and the adoption of the 13th Amendment. That's 144 years plus 9 months ago. Americans long ago fixed that problem. Segregation was ended by a majority of congressional Republicans, a minority of congressional Democrats, and Democrat President Lyndon Johnson in 1965, 45 years ago.

"The second" relates to the zoning laws of New York City. New York City is free to rectify those zoning laws they do not like. It is my current understanding that there is not currently any zoning law that prohibits the building of a Mosque near Ground Zero. There are however many New Yorkers who are offended by the possibility of a Mosque being built near Ground Zero, because extremist Muslims, not normal Muslims, murdered thousands of New Yorkers while creating Ground Zero. They believe the proposed Mosque is intended by its sponsors to celebrate the creation of Ground Zero.

That belief is certainly understandable.

Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2010 04:00 pm
@ican711nm,
Quote:

That belief is certainly understandable.


Sure, it's understandable that people are bigots. But it's still wrong.

Cycloptichorn
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2010 04:37 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Oh! Are you a bigot too?
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  0  
Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2010 04:42 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:

That belief is certainly understandable.


Sure, it's understandable that people are bigots. But it's still wrong.

Cycloptichorn

I see you are still throwing the bigotry charge out there, cyclops, so you must be feeling well? A suggestion though, maybe you should try something else instead of the bigotry charge when you run out of all of your other arguments, because it is getting a little old and frankly tiresome and dumb.

By the way, if you need any money, I heard Beck say that a reward has been offered by some lib if they can "take down" Beck by bringing forth some tapes on the guy. Surely in this age of computers, something could be cut and paste together with a computer? I am sure Soros or other folks like him have enough money to "take down" many conservative pundits out there, and if before the election this fall, all the better, right?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2010 04:44 pm
@okie,
okie, In all these years on a2k, you seem to be the only one hung up on Soros.
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2010 04:49 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I don't think "hung up" is the correct term, ci. I do believe more people should be paying attention to him, ci, because Soros himself thinks he owns the Democratic Party, because didn't he say he paid for it? If you think he is an insignificant player in the political game being played in America, I think you are very very wrong, ci. You need to pay attention to who he is, what he is doing, and why. It isn't just Moveon.org that has much influence on the Democratic Party, but many other organizations he has his finger in as well.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2010 04:59 pm
@okie,
I guess it is obvious to you then that Rupert Murdoch owns the GOP okie. After all, he has donated more money to the GOP than Soros has to the Dems.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2010 05:02 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:

That belief is certainly understandable.


Sure, it's understandable that people are bigots. But it's still wrong.

Cycloptichorn

I see you are still throwing the bigotry charge out there, cyclops, so you must be feeling well?


Why not? It's still true that the prime reason people are against Muslims in America enjoying the exact same rights as everyone else is rank bigotry.

Quote:
A suggestion though, maybe you should try something else instead of the bigotry charge when you run out of all of your other arguments, because it is getting a little old and frankly tiresome and dumb.


No, it isn't. It's perfectly accurate and a charge which cuts straight to the heart of the illogical positions that you and others take regarding minority groups.

Quote:
By the way, if you need any money, I heard Beck say that a reward has been offered by some lib if they can "take down" Beck by bringing forth some tapes on the guy. Surely in this age of computers, something could be cut and paste together with a computer? I am sure Soros or other folks like him have enough money to "take down" many conservative pundits out there, and if before the election this fall, all the better, right?


I have no desire to gain any sort of money having anything to do with Beck, at all. I don't know why you segued to this in the middle of the other conversation we were having.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2010 05:06 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:

I don't think "hung up" is the correct term, ci. I do believe more people should be paying attention to him, ci, because Soros himself thinks he owns the Democratic Party, because didn't he say he paid for it? If you think he is an insignificant player in the political game being played in America, I think you are very very wrong, ci. You need to pay attention to who he is, what he is doing, and why. It isn't just Moveon.org that has much influence on the Democratic Party, but many other organizations he has his finger in as well.


Wouldn't you say the same about Murdoch, as Parados pointed out? Or about the Koch brothers, who have done the exact same (they fund the Tea Parties)? How about Conrad Black, same with him.

You don't really give a **** about people donating huge sums of money to help their political parties at all - you're just anti-Democrat, and so you're anti- anyone who donates to their causes.

Cycloptichorn
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2010 05:16 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Yes, I am anti- Democrat. Put in different words, I am anti-donate to stupid and socialist causes. I believe such is anti-American.
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2010 05:17 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:

Yes, I am anti- Democrat. Put in different words, I am anti-donate to stupid and socialist causes.


It's fine for you to have your opinion about Democrats, fallacious as it may be. But it sort of takes the wind out of the sails of your argument that Soros is in some way a bad guy, when you admit this sort of thing.

To put it plainly, partisan carping isn't as meaningful as actual criticisms.

Cycloptichorn
plainoldme
 
  0  
Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2010 05:40 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Or about Leo Strauss.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2010 06:00 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

It's fine for you to have your opinion about Democrats, fallacious as it may be. But it sort of takes the wind out of the sails of your argument that Soros is in some way a bad guy, when you admit this sort of thing.
Cycloptichorn

Soros may be a nice guy personally, but I just think he is misguided and is throwing out much money and power to his causes, which I vigorously disagree with and oppose.

Actually, if you read Soros article "The Capitalist Threat," published in the Atlantic Monthly in February, 1997, it is an astounding outline of what Soros believes, which is a pretty open shut case that the man is dedicated to some kind of world open society situation. He talks about finding some kind of middle ground between communism and free market capitalism, and in fact it is remarkably similar to the opinions that you post here, cyclops.

Reading the article just before posting this, and I am posting the link for the article, it was in fact a huge eye opener to me and I think it provides a small window into one of the most powerful movers and shakers in our political world these days. It was not comforting. It actually is quite scary, and I doubt seriously that even Soros himself realizes how misguided he is, but I believe some of his views are even Fascist in nature, borrowing some from both communistic and conservative free market idealogies to somehow come up with some kind of one world utopian like "open society." He even admits to not knowing how to get there, but advocates an attempt to try do it anyway. I have written this before, that I think he may be driven by some kind of a guilt complex over all of his money and how he acquired it. So I believe that anyone that truly believes in freedoma and liberty should oppose this man along with all of his political efforts, which sadly now includes the Democratic Party.

I have attempted to capture an essence of what his article conveys by capturing a short quote, which is difficult to do. I would recommend everyone read the entire article, as linked below my quote from it.

"It can be seen that the concept of the open society is a seemingly inexhaustible source of difficulties. That is to be expected. After all, the open society is based on the recognition of our fallibility. Indeed, it stands to reason that our ideal of the open society is unattainable. To have a blueprint for it would be self-contradictory. That does not mean that we should not strive toward it. In science also, ultimate truth is unattainable. Yet look at the progress we have made in pursuing it. Similarly, the open society can be approximated to a greater or lesser extent."

http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/issues/97feb/capital/capital.htm
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2010 06:02 pm
http://www.sarahpac.com/
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2010 06:04 pm
@okie,
Let's talk about this quote.

Quote:
"It can be seen that the concept of the open society is a seemingly inexhaustible source of difficulties. That is to be expected. After all, the open society is based on the recognition of our fallibility. Indeed, it stands to reason that our ideal of the open society is unattainable. To have a blueprint for it would be self-contradictory. That does not mean that we should not strive toward it. In science also, ultimate truth is unattainable. Yet look at the progress we have made in pursuing it. Similarly, the open society can be approximated to a greater or lesser extent."


What do you find objectionable or scary about it? Do you understand what he is talking about here? It seems maybe not so much.

Cycloptichorn
okie
 
  0  
Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2010 06:21 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
What is scary is that he does not seem to recognize the things that we have already learned about such a vision, that it doesn't work, and that freedom is still the most valuable principle that exists. He thinks that some kind of fair utopian like open society one world is actually achievable, and so he is willing to stumble along making the same age old mistakes in order to try to get there. There seems to be no recognition of what we have already learned from history.

There is a blueprint for honorable and principled government, and it is called freedom and liberty, as embodied in the great experiment, the United States of America, as it has been, not some futuristic and Socialist one world envisioned by Soros.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2010 06:33 pm
@okie,
I'll ask again: do you understand what he means, when he says an 'open society?' Please be specific, not some random muttering about how you don't like Socialism.

Cycloptichorn
ican711nm
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2010 07:06 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:

http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/issues/97feb/capital/capital.htm
THE CAPITALIST THREAT
What kind of society do we want? "Let the free market decide!" is the often-heard response. That response, a prominent capitalist argues, undermines the very values on which open and democratic societies depend.

by George Soros
...
I now fear that the untrammeled intensification of laissez-faire capitalism and the spread of market values into all areas of life is endangering our open and democratic society. The main enemy of the open society, I believe, is no longer the communist but the capitalist threat.

The term "open society" was coined by Henri Bergson, in his book The Two Sources of Morality and Religion (1932), and given greater currency by the Austrian philosopher Karl Popper, in his book The Open Society and Its Enemies (1945). Popper showed that totalitarian ideologies like communism and Nazism have a common element: they claim to be in possession of the ultimate truth. Since the ultimate truth is beyond the reach of humankind, these ideologies have to resort to oppression in order to impose their vision on society. Popper juxtaposed with these totalitarian ideologies another view of society, which recognizes that nobody has a monopoly on the truth; different people have different views and different interests, and there is a need for institutions that allow them to live together in peace. These institutions protect the rights of citizens and ensure freedom of choice and freedom of speech. Popper called this form of social organization the "open society." Totalitarian ideologies were its enemies.
...

Rightist Conservatism is not totalitarian. It seeks only to conserve liberty, and it advocates that adherence to the Constitution, which permits amendments, is the best way to approach a truly open society.

0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2010 07:28 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Really? I thought that he was finely tired of Hitler and switched to attacking Soros for the sake of variety.
0 Replies
 
 

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