AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

@xris,

xris wrote:

Nero this attempt at distancing yourself from the extreme right wing is futile but commendable. I should think no one would want to be associated with their ideology. Ultra nationalism, religous extremism, homophobia, racism, segregation, hatred of foreigners. The problem you have is those who have the same politics as you, can also exhibit these traits and associate with many who want them implemented. Who is more likely to want more immigration controls? who is more likely to oppose the rights of homosexuals? who exhibits the tendency to desire segregation? Any struggle that the lowest faced was always opposed by the right wing of politics, just look at the history of the black rights. Sorry Nero but historicaly the right associate with the extremes such as the nazis and they still do.

Those aren't policies, they are just accusations. Conservatives are totally homophobic racist meanies, and so were the nazis. Ha!
You just ignore a whole list of specific left-wing policies that the nazis implemented, and call the nazis right-wing because of a few loose sentiments that, in your subjective opinion, are right-wing.

Firstly, the communists shared all of those sentiments, so that means they must have been right-wing too.
Secondly, you just accuse conservatives of a bunch of stuff that you think they are, as opposed to regarding their actual positions. If you don't try to understand the positions of conservatives, you should at least have the intellectual honesty to realize that they see things differently than you, and aren't just homophobic racist meanies. None of what you name as conservative positions are actually conservative positions. They are just common left-wing attacks against conservatives.
You want to get into the history of black rights in the US? How about this: More Republicans then Democrats voted for the civil rights act.

By declaring conservatives meanies you associate them with the nazis who were meanies as well. Really?? That's how you distinguish ideologies, whether they are mean or nice? Specific policies don't matter but loose sentiments of meanness do? Meanness and niceness is not a meaningful political spectrum to distinguish ideologies, because everybody thinks the other sides positions are mean and their own are nice.

The nazis can't simply be put in the pigeonhole of "meanies" either. The nazis implemented the very socialist policies that "democratic" socialists advocate today to help "the lowest", like unemployment benefits, public education, pensions and health care. They implemented the first animal rights laws in the world. (And Hitler was a vegetarian.) And they instated environmental protection laws. The nazis implemented gun control. They actually decriminalized gayness and legalized abortion. They broke crosses off churches. How about conscription, the nazis could never have done what they did without a conscripted military at their disposal. Conscription is a left wing ideal, American conservatives believe in a volunteer army, European socialist countries still have conscription.

The nazis were just another left-wing, big government, socialist, collectivist experiment that went wrong. American conservatives are liberal, small government, free-market individualists; they are at the opposite of the political spectrum.

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@EmperorNero,

Quote:

Oh, wikipedia say so, then it must be so. Well, like what?

immigration policy. (I didn't refer to Arizona law. I don't know why you did.)
One language requirements (We support English as the official language in our nation, - Republican platform)
Banning pornography.
Rewriting history books to not denigrate the nation
Attempts to restrict voting rights

oh.. wait.. Conservatives support Social Security
("We are committed to putting Social Security on a sound fiscal basis." -Republican platform)
And conservatives support unions too
("We affirm both the right of individuals to voluntarily participate in labor organizations and bargain collectively and the right of states to enact Right-to-Work laws" -Republican Platform)
And conservatives support Medicare
("We support the provision of quality and accessible health care options for our nation’s seniors and disabled individuals" - Republican Platform)

Quote:

The nazis were super-evil, that means they can't be left-wing? Look, they were super-evil lefties, deal with it.

Lovely strawman. I never said anything about there being no leftist dictators. Actually that seems to be your argument about why Nazis are left wing.

Simple question for your Nero -
Are their dictators on the left and the right of the political spectrum? I say yes. What do you say? If you say yes then please list a couple of RW dictators.

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@EmperorNero,

Quote:

Yeah, the Nazis never had any intention of creating anything but a Dictatorship. So? Socialism is often dictatorial. It's friggin statist control of peoples lives.

Include your ENTIRE quote.
Are you arguing that "So? Socialism is often dictatorial." has nothing to do with the prior sentence?

The only logical way to read your entire quote is to infer you think Nazism is socialism because it is dictatorial. Otherwise your statements make no sense and they are simply non sequitors.

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@EmperorNero,

Quote:

The nazis were just another left-wing, big government, socialist, collectivist experiment that went wrong. American conservatives are liberal, small government, free-market individualists; they are at the opposite of the political spectrum.

So... are you arguing that modern conservatives are against unemployment benefits, public education, pensions and health care, environmental laws.

Quote:

They actually decriminalized gayness and legalized abortion.

Now you are just making stuff up. Why were homosexuals sent to concentration camps in your view Nero? Why were women rewarded for having 4, 6, and 8 children?

Quote:

How about conscription, the nazis could never have done what they did without a conscripted military at their disposal. Conscription is a left wing ideal, American conservatives believe in a volunteer army

Please provide a source for this. I see nothing that shows liberals are for conscription any more than conservatives are. Certainly if liberals were for conscription we would have had conscription when Carter was President or Clinton. Both had Democratic congresses for part of their term. Clinton reduced the army to a point that Republicans claimed he was destroying our ability to defend ourselves. It is the conservatives that want a bigger army Nero. There aren't too many facts to show the opposite.

1 Reply

@parados,

parados wrote:

Quote:
The nazis were just another left-wing, big government, socialist, collectivist experiment that went wrong. American conservatives are liberal, small government, free-market individualists; they are at the opposite of the political spectrum.

So... are you arguing that modern conservatives are against unemployment benefits, public education, pensions and health care, environmental laws.

It has become unpopular to advocate those positions, but conservatives are on the same side of the political spectrum. Those positions would just be further to the right, enter Rand Paul.

parados wrote:

Quote:
They actually decriminalized gayness and legalized abortion.
Now you are just making stuff up. Why were homosexuals sent to concentration camps in your view Nero? Why were women rewarded for having 4, 6, and 8 children?

Yeah, ok. That was a little misleading. The nazis rewarded German women for having children, while decriminalizing gayness and legalizing abortion in conquered territories that they wanted to depopulate, like Poland. Modern leftists just want to depopulate all of humanity.

parados wrote:

Quote:
How about conscription, the nazis could never have done what they did without a conscripted military at their disposal. Conscription is a left wing ideal, American conservatives believe in a volunteer army

Please provide a source for this.

Search for sources yourself. Conscription is a leftist notion, it follows from the ideal that society (the state) takes care of us, and in return we have a commitment to society. Like taxes. European socialist countries still have conscription, the conservative US does not.

parados wrote:

Certainly if liberals were for conscription we would have had conscription when Carter was President or Clinton.

Not everything changes just because a Democrat is in the white house.

parados wrote:

Clinton reduced the army to a point that Republicans claimed he was destroying our ability to defend ourselves. It is the conservatives that want a bigger army Nero.

Yes, a voluntary army.

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@EmperorNero,

Quote:

But modern leftists want to depopulate all of humanity.

Wow.. that's another straw man. You are just full of them Nero.

Quote:

Search for sources yourself. Conscription is a leftist notion, it follows from the ideal that society (the state) takes care of us, and in return we have a commitment to society. Like taxes. European socialist countries still have conscription, the conservative US does not.

And now we see you falling off the logical cliff. You claimed it. It's your responsibility. I already refuted it by pointing out that liberals in the US didn't introduce it when they were in power. Because you can provide a correlation doesn't point to a cause.

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Could Emperor Nero be yet another incarnation of massagatto?

How can someone be soooooo misinformed and sooooooo pugnaciously stupid?

But, I like the fact that nero dislikes me and calls me stupid: shows that I am on the correct track toward a better world.

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@parados,

parados wrote:

Quote:
But modern leftists want to depopulate all of humanity.

Wow.. that's another straw man.

Research Margaret Sanger.

parados wrote:

Quote:
Search for sources yourself. Conscription is a leftist notion, it follows from the ideal that society (the state) takes care of us, and in return we have a commitment to society. Like taxes. European socialist countries still have conscription, the conservative US does not.

You claimed it. It's your responsibility.

Yes, it is my claim. But I don't care whether you believe me. I provide you with the facts, you can confirm them yourself. Or just believe what you want to believe. Once I start posting "sources" you will start claiming they are "biased", etc, then there's no going back.

parados wrote:

I already refuted it by pointing out that liberals in the US didn't introduce it when they were in power. Because you can provide a correlation doesn't point to a cause.

Clinton didn't introduce universal health care either, does that refute that universal health care is a leftist position? Just because a left-wing administration doesn't implement it, doesn't mean it's not a leftist position. And Clinton certainly wasn't a pure leftist.

Forcing people to fight for the state is as old as the state, but modern mass conscription came with the French revolution and leftist, collectivist ideals of everybody having a responsibility to take care of society in return for society taking care of them. The very ideals that are behind socialism and taxation. Conservatives are individualists. They believe in a strong defense, but not in conscription. That doesn't lead to world wars, conscription does.

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@EmperorNero,

Quote:

The nazis rewarded German women for having children, while decriminalizing gayness and legalizing abortion in conquered territories that they wanted to depopulate

Do you have a source for that statement Nero? I see nothing about the Nazi regime being tolerant for homosexuals in the countries it occupied. It appears Poland decriminalized homosexuality in 1932 before the German invasion. So your claim that the Germans did it is false.

1 Reply

@EmperorNero,

Quote:

Research Margaret Sanger.

Nothing in her work about wanting to depopulate all of humanity

Just made up crap from you Nero.

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Yes, it is my claim. But I don't care whether you believe me. I provide you with the facts, you can confirm them yourself.

Let me know when you actually provide a fact so I can confirm it. Your fantasies are not facts.

I have caught you in several lies now Nero. But you are a conservative and right wing, aren't you? Wait.. Nazi's told lies. Nero tells lies. Wouldn't that make the Nazi's right wing like you?

1 Reply

@EmperorNero,

Quote:

Clinton didn't introduce universal health care either, does that refute that universal health care is a leftist position? Just because a left-wing administration doesn't implement it, doesn't mean it's not a leftist position.

The difference is Clinton DID introduce health care legislation that was defeated in Congress. Clinton never even talked about mass conscription let alone introduced legislation.

1 Reply

@parados,

parados wrote:

Quote:
Research Margaret Sanger.

Nothing in her work about wanting to depopulate all of humanity

Right, only brown people.

parados wrote:

Quote:
Yes, it is my claim. But I don't care whether you believe me. I provide you with the facts, you can confirm them yourself.

Let me know when you actually provide a fact so I can confirm it.

National socialism was a left-wing progressive movement.

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@parados,

Emperor Nero. What a strange nom d'email for someone promoting the right.

Nero, a bisexual who, like his uncle Caligula before him, had carnal knowledge of Agrippina, his own mother, whom he later killed. A cruel man, later judged to be insane, who persecuted Christians.

Anyway, the person using this pseudonym here obviously knows nothing about the Holocaust because the Nazis killed homosexuals in the gas chambers.

According to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum (the same facts are in Wiki but the pompous Nero -- wonder if he knows that Nero means black? -- dislikes Wiki):

Nazi campaign against homosexuality targeted the more than one million German men who, the state asserted, carried a "degeneracy" that threatened the "disciplined masculinity" of Germany. Denounced as "antisocial parasites" and as "enemies of the state," more than 100,000 men were arrested under a broadly interpreted law against homosexuality. Approximately 50,000 men served prison terms as convicted homosexuals, while an unknown number were institutionalized in mental hospitals. Others—perhaps hundreds—were castrated under court order or coercion. Analyses of fragmentary records suggest that between 5,000 and 15,000 homosexual men were imprisoned in concentration camps, where many died from starvation, disease, exhaustion, beatings, and murder.

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@EmperorNero,

The Nazis did not legalize abortion but used it as a tool. Roma (gypsy) women and Jewish women captured by the Nazis were forced to have abortions if pregnant, although the Nazis generally just solved the problem by sending pregnant women to the front of the gas chamber line.

Russian and Polish women in the camps were sexually exploited by German soldiers. If they became pregnant as the result of these rapes, a decision was made as to whether the child could be "germanized." If not, the child was aborted.

Try facts for a change! You might find it refreshing.

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Wow, my reply on the treatment of homosexuality by the Nazis was voted down. I guess some pussy just can't face facts.

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@EmperorNero,

What are you on? when does the left wing or communists abide by religious dogma,quite the opposite. Homophobia , is that trait associated with the left wing?I dont think so. Immigration controls , the only controls communists had was stopping people leave not enter and it is never been classified as a left wing agenda. Segregation has been an activity of right wing juntas never left or even communist. Your attempts at turning the world order upside down is almost comical. Nazis had the intention of doing the complete opposite of any left wing agenda but its not the point we are comparing left and right with the Nazis. to say the left wing have similarities with the Nazis is farcical.

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@parados,

parados wrote:

Quote:
Clinton didn't introduce universal health care either, does that refute that universal health care is a leftist position? Just because a left-wing administration doesn't implement it, doesn't mean it's not a leftist position.

The difference is Clinton DID introduce health care legislation that was defeated in Congress. Clinton never even talked about mass conscription let alone introduced legislation.

So unless Clinton did it, it cannot have been left-wing? Seriously?

But it's kind off unimportant, picking at two minor points doesn't discredit the overall argument: That national socialism was a progressive socialist movement, to be placed on the opposite of conservatives on any political spectrum.

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The most disgusting thing about the American right -- and, yes, it is difficult to narrow it down to one thing -- is the simultaneous promotion of the right by itself as following the mandate of personal responsibility while utterly refusing to ever take responsibility for anything, particularly for an understanding of history.

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@EmperorNero,

Quote:

National socialism was a left-wing progressive movement.

A fantasy on your part Nero. You can't provide sources to back it up.

1 Reply

@EmperorNero,

Clinton is widely recognized as a centrist.

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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

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