@plainoldme,
POM:
Quote:Governments are created by people. People give up some of their rights in order to create a government. That belief . . . actually, that reality . . . is expressed in the Declaration of Independence:" . . .Governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."
BEEP, BEEP, Back up the truck there POM. The people
do not "give up" any of their rights. Let's fill in the elipses shall we?
Quote:We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
But just your quote itself puts the lie to your statement that individuals give up some rights when they institute a government. Where does government (in the U.S.) get its power? Well, it is "deriv[ed]... "from the consent of the governed."
But why is our government "instituted among Men"? Well, Simply to "secure [those] rights". Additionally, the founding fathers were quite clear to whom the power and rights belonged to when they told us how governments may change:
Quote:"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."
The rights stay with the people all the way even when the government goes the way of the Dodo and is reconstituted. (we will likely see a mini-change ourselves this November)
This mindset that government has rights is as old as mankind's first government which probably consisted of the caveman with the best hunting skills or, perhaps who was the baddest ass in the group with the biggest club. The new kid on the block was the U.S. who tryed to institute a government amoung free individuals that would produce a just society where opportunity was available for all. The left believes your above statement POM and has, since the first caveman and right thru strongmen and monarchs and dictators and, now, even American Presidents, that rights come from the beneficence of government. Here is a tickler for you: was Hobbes for or against monarchy?
The FF founded a nation on individual rights, and a government charged with protecting those rights, period.
As regarding my statement:
Quote:The legislature is a dangerous concentration of power and that is why it has checks on it
and your response:
Quote:Whoa, Nelly! Do you have things backwards! The checks are on the chief executive as much as on the legislature. Some of the FFs feared the presidency.
Your second sentence, although true, does not support the contention of the first.
You will recognize that the judicial branch now has some pretty powerful checks itself. So much so that Robert Bork has pointed out what is sometimes termed the "Madisonian dilemma" or "counter-majoritarian" dilemma of the judiciary. But that is another topic (although it ultimately involves individual rights)
JM
