God & Evil

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the usual description of god would be that he is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving. so if that is the case, why does evil, pain and suffering exist in our world?

either god can, but won't rid us of evil. in which case he is malevolent.

or he would, but can't rid us of evil. in which case he is impotent.

or he can and would, but chooses not to anyway due to us having free will. but if we have free will, how can god be all-knowing? if we have the ability to make truly free choices, god wouldn't know what we would choose to do, and if he can know what we will do in every situation, are we truly free?

i'm not on any particular side in this argument, but i read an article somewhere and thought it was an interesting debate.

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Evil is a consequence of the sin which the first human pair committed of their own free will.

That is not to say that God lacks either the power or the will to remedy the situation.

He will set things straight, but not according to our timetable.

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This is a problem for theologians to explain. Like rockpie said, how can an all-powerful and all-good God permit evil?

Most explanations used the free will defence, the ability to freely choose, which ultimately God gave us, draw your conclusions from there.

What does seem odd though, is why did Jesus have to die for our sins on the cross? If he kept his mouth shut and didn't say anything, he wouldn't have been put to death.

Did Jesus choose of his own free will to do and say what he did and said, would it have been a sin if he didn't say anything?

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The original question was written by Epicurus (350-?270 BC), and I have never seen it satisfactorily answered:

Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot;
Or he can, but does not want to;
Or he cannot and does not want to.
If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent.
If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked.
But, if God both can and wants to abolish evil,
Then how come there is evil in the world?

If God is omnipotent, he has the power to do literally anything. God controls what happens by controlling the events that led up to it. For instance, earthquakes and volcanoes are caused by continental drift due to the composition and structure of the earth, due to the way dust particles coalesced in our solar system, due to star births and deaths all the way back to the big bang.

To an omniscient being, even chaotic processes like the weather are predictable. A hurricane could be reduced in power or diverted from a populated area very easily if God chose to answer the millions of prayers to spare their lives. But he doesn't. God could have diverted the planes which struck the WTC in many simple ways but did not. Prayers that sick children recover seem to be "answered" randomly without regard to the faith of the parents or the goodness of the child.

God allows innocent children to be raped, abused, or roasted alive in a fire when any ethical being with the power to rescue them would do so. God chooses not save some people from evil acts (presumably valuing the perpetrator's right to free will over the victim's) and predestines others to be evil (according to the Bible). Perhaps pain and suffering is all part of his Plan, but it does seem immoral from our perspective.

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Terry wrote:

The original question was written by Epicurus (350-?270 BC), and I have never seen it satisfactorily answered:

Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot;
Or he can, but does not want to;
Or he cannot and does not want to.
If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent.
If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked.
But, if God both can and wants to abolish evil,
Then how come there is evil in the world?

If God is omnipotent, he has the power to do literally anything. God controls what happens by controlling the events that led up to it. For instance, earthquakes and volcanoes are caused by continental drift due to the composition and structure of the earth, due to the way dust particles coalesced in our solar system, due to star births and deaths all the way back to the big bang.

To an omniscient being, even chaotic processes like the weather are predictable. A hurricane could be reduced in power or diverted from a populated area very easily if God chose to answer the millions of prayers to spare their lives. But he doesn't. God could have diverted the planes which struck the WTC in many simple ways but did not. Prayers that sick children recover seem to be "answered" randomly without regard to the faith of the parents or the goodness of the child.

God allows innocent children to be raped, abused, or roasted alive in a fire when any ethical being with the power to rescue them would do so. God chooses not save some people from evil acts (presumably valuing the perpetrator's right to free will over the victim's) and predestines others to be evil (according to the Bible). Perhaps pain and suffering is all part of his Plan, but it does seem immoral from our perspective.

The answer is that Satan has been given a period of time to prove or be disproved in his rebellion.

That the current ruler of this world is not God, but Satan, was verified by Jesus several times. (See John 12:31, 14:30, 16:11) Also, consider the fact that Satan was able to offer the kingdoms of the world to Jesus. (Matthew 4:8-11)

Jesus told his disciples that "Satan has demanded to have YOU men to sift YOU as wheat." (Luke 22:31)

Additionally, the book of Job gives insight into the motives of Satan.

Jehovah has set a time for things to be set straight. If it were me, I might have acted sooner. But then, I'm just a dumb clod from New Jersey.

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there is also the aesthetic argument.

think of the world as a painting, what we see when evil happens are the blacks and dark colours that make our existence seem totally unattractive. but from gods point of view, as he can see the painting in its entirity, the dark colours make the overall picture more beautiful.

but then, even if evil is a consequence of sin, or so that we can learn from, or even to make gods picture pretty, why does there have to be so much?

for example, why did 2 instead of 1 plane have to crash on 9/11. and why couldn't 3 million jews die in the holocaust instead of 6 million?

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Re: God & Evil

rockpie wrote:

the usual description of god would be that he is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving. so if that is the case, why does evil, pain and suffering exist in our world?
......

There's only one rational answer: God is all-powerful WITHIN HIS OWN DOMINIONS, WHICH ARE SPIRITUAL AND NOT CORPOREAL, but has very limited if any power to act within our own corporeal realm.

Thus Jesus said that his father's kingdom is not of this world.

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The whole thing hinges on how you define "all-powerful".... do you mean having all the power which anybody can imagine, or all the power that there actually is. The first definition leads inexorably to conundrums, while the second does not.

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Re: God & Evil

rockpie wrote:

the usual description of god would be that he is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving. so if that is the case, why does evil, pain and suffering exist in our world?

The usual description of Little Red Riding Hood involves a talking wolf, so if that is the case, why don't talking wolves exist in our world?

Reality trumps wishful thinking, no matter how hard you wish for it.

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gungasnake wrote:

The whole thing hinges on how you define "all-powerful".... do you mean having all the power which anybody can imagine, or all the power that there actually is. The first definition leads inexorably to conundrums, while the second does not.

All the conundrums evaporate if you simply remove the assumption of "that type of" god.

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rosborne979 wrote:

gungasnake wrote:
The whole thing hinges on how you define "all-powerful".... do you mean having all the power which anybody can imagine, or all the power that there actually is. The first definition leads inexorably to conundrums, while the second does not.

All the conundrums evaporate if you simply remove the assumption of "that type of" god.

But it spoils the amusement for the rest of us watching them count angels on pinheads and getting their knickers in a twist.

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Re: God & Evil

rockpie wrote:

... but if we have free will, how can god be all-knowing? if we have the ability to make truly free choices, god wouldn't know what we would choose to do ...

This is an interesting point, and it appears that there is a paradox.
If we truly have free will, god would NOT know in advance what people will choose to do, in which case he is NOT omniscient.

If he is omniscient and does know what we'll do, then we can't possibly have free will since our choices are determined by this something god can see and know our actions in advance. Since we didn't choose this something that determines our choices, we don't have true free will and can't possibly be held responsible for our actions. God punishing bad behavior and rewarding good behavior would be unfair.

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What makes you think God gives a damn? He's on the golf course.

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According to James Joyce He is The Artist, God of creation, remaining within or behind or beyond or above his handiwork, invisible, refined out of existence, indifferent, paring his fingernails.

And artists don't play golf. They hate the practicing.

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Wasnt he the one broadcasting from Germany during the war?

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No.

That was William Joyce who was born in Brooklyn. No relation that I know of.

BTW Steve, there are 10 to the power of 69 angels can dance on a pinhead.

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Thanks I shall ponder on the significance of that for the next few hours.

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Re: God & Evil

gungasnake wrote:

rockpie wrote:
the usual description of god would be that he is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving. so if that is the case, why does evil, pain and suffering exist in our world?
......

There's only one rational answer: God is all-powerful WITHIN HIS OWN DOMINIONS, WHICH ARE SPIRITUAL AND NOT CORPOREAL, but has very limited if any power to act within our own corporeal realm.

Thus Jesus said that his father's kingdom is not of this world.

If God's kingdom is not of this world, as you've described above, then God seems like the worst possible authority to be placing judgements on us. It would seem that there would be an issue of jurisdiction and timeframe etc.

T
K
O

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when jesus said that his fathers kingdom was not of this world, i always assumed he meant that his fathers kingdom is built on the things that are not of this world.

kingdoms of this world tend to be built on wealth, greed, corruption, etc.

the things that god condemns, hence his kingdom is not of this world.

besides, if he has the power to make the universe, surely he has the power to maintain, or control what goes on in it.

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Re: God & Evil

rockpie wrote:

the usual description of god would be that he is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving. so if that is the case, why does evil, pain and suffering exist in our world?

That description only applies to some "versions" of God!

Deist

One who believes in the existence of a God, but denies revealed religion; a freethinker.

de·ism (de'iz'?m, da'-)
n.

The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation.

"Is the devil real?"

No!

The devil is a "creature of the night (dark)" utilized to instill fear in people so as to gain control over them.

"Is evil real?"

No!

Evil is where we classify those events in out lives that "seem" to be negatives to our existence or reality.

In reality those negatives are events which might be hurdles we are meant to over come but were preordained "possibilities" that were programed into the existence of our current entity prior to our incarnation but with our approval.

i choose

i chose to be born, - to live or die,
Even the sex, that would be i;
i chose the race, from which to appear,
Also my wealth, my health and my fear.

i chose my trials and stumbling blocks,
And the legs i would use, in all of those walks;
i chose my sadness, my joy and my love,
i chose to serve and not be above.

i chose this life - with all of its dues,
And with each dawn, again i choose;
The experiences for me that wait ahead,
To be alive, or be claimed dead.

And of the future lives i've yet,
It is my choice that i begat;
All the things, however pleasin',
That shall befall me in those seasons.

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God & Evil

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