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is detroying someones religious beleifs unethical?

 
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2008 01:29 am
shewolfnm wrote:


But I think it is sort of arrogant to assume one ( This means ANYONE) can 'destroy' someones belief system.
It takes many years, and as someone else said, many questions to change your religious beliefs.
I was raised christian.. southern baptist to be exact.
10 years later, nothing of christianity rings as true to me anymore. I can not believe that folks buy it anymore . But that is just my opinion.

But to think that one conversation destroys someones life foundation, is just.. TOO MUCH.

..


Which gets back to my statement that it is motive that matters. How many times have you witnessed one person coming to another, the second person having never requested debate or intellectual jousting, and clearly attempt to lay some blows on their belief system? I have witnessed it often, and this is clearly assault. Sometime the assault seems to be motivated by a desire to hurt, sometime it is taken up as sport, but I don't care why. It is wrong.

Hopefully the one suffering from the assault will be strong enough of self to knock the aggressor back on their ass.

True enough though, we don't know what was going on with the situation described in the OP. However, the wording and tittle are flags that the person posting was at least aggressive. The pattern of his posting over the last few days also indicates to me that he has a taste for getting his thrills in intellectual sport (disregard for others). So not good for the people in his life.
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Atheist101
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2008 01:52 am
Yes.

If the person has challenged you, or if it is mutually acceptedthat it is a debate, changing a persons views is accepted. If you are trying to change their views against their will, then yes. It is ethically wrong. Take, for example, these forums. A person is looking for a debate. If you convince them they are wrong it's all good. Knocking on someone's door shoving pamphlets of Jesus in their face is wrong.
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agrote
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2008 04:45 am
I haven't read the whole thread, so this is a response to the original post.

Shoving atheism down somebody's throat is one thing, but tactfully challenging false beliefs is another. Just because people enjoy believing in supernatural things, I don't think that obliges us to keep quiet about how wrong they are. I agree with some of the "New Atheists" in thinking that faith in the supernatural is the source of a lot of the world's problems, and without it we would all be better off. You have to crack a few eggs to make an omelette, and you have to upset a lot of religious people to make the world a rational place free of war and full of guilt-free sex.

The only remotely sensible ethical way of thinking that I am aware of is consequentialism. To decide whether it is okay to dismantle somebody's religious beliefs, I think you need to work out what positive contribution you would be making to the world, and weigh that against the suffering you would be causing. I reckon it might be possible to deconvert someone in a relatively painless way. You have to make them realise that the world is the way it is whether or not God exists; so for example, love is just as real and just as wonderful regardless of whether it comes from God or from brain chemistry. If you can manage that, I reckon persuading people out of their religious beliefs will be more moral than "politeness" and "respect" (superstitious beliefs really don't deserve respect... they're silly).

But don't shove it down their throats. That will irritate them unecessarily.
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Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2008 05:48 am
The truth shall set you free.

Yes. It will.

Joe(As soon as you grasp that what you believe now isn't true.)Nation
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2008 06:33 am
"The truth shall set you free" may be construed as an absolute statement as might "Truth is relative".
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hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2008 07:02 am
Chumly wrote:
"The truth shall set you free" may be construed as an absolute statement as might "Truth is relative".


You are responsible for you and your relationship with truth, others are responsible for themselves and their relationship with truth. When you violate this boundary you violate others.
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hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Feb, 2008 06:41 am
hawkeye10 wrote:
Chumly wrote:
"The truth shall set you free" may be construed as an absolute statement as might "Truth is relative".


You are responsible for you and your relationship with truth, others are responsible for themselves and their relationship with truth. When you violate this boundary you violate others.


That doesn't address the fact that truth is relative.
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Francis
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Feb, 2008 07:04 am
Getting back to the core question, I have never seen the truth, relative or otherwise, destroying religious beliefs...

On the other hand, as far as I'm corcerned, religious beliefs are highly unethical..
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hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Feb, 2008 07:10 am
Francis wrote:
Getting back to the core question, I have never seen the truth, relative or otherwise, destroying religious beliefs...

On the other hand, as far as I'm corcerned, religious beliefs are highly unethical..


HI Francis - no offence but I'm in anti black and white mode - 'Thou shalt not kill' is highly unethical?
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Francis
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Feb, 2008 07:17 am
That's a strawman, Hinge.

It's just a phrase, took out of context, from a highly unethical book of fairies..

I can make thousands of that kind..

Both ways..


In addition, religious beliefs are to be taken in a broader scope, not only the Buble..
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hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Feb, 2008 07:21 am
One could argue that what you find unethical in religion is 'straw man' too. But please don't make this poor atheist defend religion....
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Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Feb, 2008 07:34 am
Religious people seem to do just fine when they are making up beliefs based on myth for themselves. (Although, isn't it a wonder that women always end up secondary to men? God's only consistency, yes? Sigh.)

It's the believers tendency, their drive, to extend those beliefs and their attendant rules on the rest of humankind where they put themselves squarely in front of any challenge to their myths. Especially when they insist that out of the thousands of myths, creation and otherwise, found in the literature of all the ages, theirs and only theirs is not a myth, but is real. Name one of the thousands of religions which does not make that claim.

Golly, someone's getting their religious beliefs challenged?

Joe(Good, they asked for it.)Nation
0 Replies
 
shewolfnm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Feb, 2008 08:30 am
hawkeye10 wrote:
shewolfnm wrote:
But I think it is sort of arrogant to assume >snipped</quote>snipped<.


( I cut the quotes short because it isnt entirely about the content of those posts that I want to respond to.. but those posts started this thought I have..)
Besides that, it keeps the page shorter. Smile


My other thought on this, and again.. let me say this is not meant to insult anyone or put OG on the spot. This is my opinion and my thought process only.

I might be a little old fashioned with this thought but I would never, ever , ever approach my mother, father, grandfather, grandmother, or any other elder family member with the intent of changing , insulting, or belittling their beliefs.
To me personally, that seems very arrogant and completely rude.

I was brought up to accept my family as they are no matter their quirks .

My mother exhausts me with her constant , sometimes mindless attempts to convince me I need to go to church with her. But she is my mother. She is allowed to do that. She is allowed to give me direction, and suggestions. She is my mother. That is her job. I am her child, not her peer, I do not have that power when it comes to things like that.

She also knows I am not christian anymore, though I do not sit down and explain why. That is where I feel I am crossing the line of basic respect to my mother . I would only have the motivation to try to convert her.. .just as she does me.. But I do not see this as OK behavior for a child. And no matter how old I get, I am still her child. I also dont sit down to explain how I believe because I dont want to damage her belief system . I do not want to be responsible for that heart ache, that confusion, that anguish.
Someone did that to me and , though I was 100% receptive to it, it was a huge blow.
I am thankful now that I met the person who did this for me, but I could no imagine being responsible for putting that kind of rift in my mothers life. I am not here to do that to her.

A banter, a discussion, a debate.. between friends, similar aged people, neighbors etc.. That is where I think the motivation to change someone -may- be acceptable. But when it comes to your elder family members, I think it does not belong.

I sometimes feel as though most of my generation has truly lost that basic respect for their family and it bothers me. We should not be cussing , yelling and telling our parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles what to do, where to go, or where to shove it. Nor should we be making attempts to have them " see our way" on such personal issues.

but, this is a completely different argument that may not belong here, but I wanted to post it anyway.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Feb, 2008 09:44 am
well said, shewolf.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Feb, 2008 12:00 pm
Joe Nation wrote:
Especially when they insist that out of the thousands of myths, creation and otherwise, found in the literature of all the ages, theirs and only theirs is not a myth, but is real. Name one of the thousands of religions which does not make that claim.
Is the New Age a religion (one might well ask)?
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Feb, 2008 12:32 pm
Joe Nation wrote:
Religious people seem to do just fine when they are making up beliefs based on myth for themselves. (Although, isn't it a wonder that women always end up secondary to men? God's only consistency, yes? Sigh.)

It's the believers tendency, their drive, to extend those beliefs and their attendant rules on the rest of humankind where they put themselves squarely in front of any challenge to their myths. Especially when they insist that out of the thousands of myths, creation and otherwise, found in the literature of all the ages, theirs and only theirs is not a myth, but is real. Name one of the thousands of religions which does not make that claim.

Golly, someone's getting their religious beliefs challenged?

Joe(Good, they asked for it.)Nation


The problem with your theory is the myth is not the opposite of real. Myth is wisdom handed down through the ages in the form of stories. You have every right to take as your God the truth that you experience through your senses, by why do you object to people taking as their truth
God as is known by the myths gifted to us by our ancestors? You assume that you are right and they are wrong, but you have no basis for reaching that conclusion other than your arrogant belief that your assumptions must be right.
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OGIONIK
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Feb, 2008 01:02 pm
anyways, i decided to spark up the debate again, my dads not one to give up easily.

this time i let him win Smile
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Feb, 2008 01:05 pm
With so much so-called "wisdom" hanging around, and so many believers in said "wisdom", it's a wonder any mistakes are still made. Must be all done by those pesky nonbelievers in said "wisdom".
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Feb, 2008 01:08 pm
OGIONIK wrote:
anyways, i decided to spark up the debate again, my dads not one to give up easily.

this time i let him win Smile


Because toying with people gives you such a thrill.....right?
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Feb, 2008 01:09 pm
Chumly wrote:
With so much so-called "wisdom" hanging around, and so many believers in said "wisdom", it's a wonder any mistakes are still made. Must be all done by those pesky nonbelievers in said "wisdom".


Because it could not be because man is imperfect could it.
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