Try hard

So I and all those people I quoted are wrong, and you and Mctag are right? Just because you "think so", having supplied no evidence (as I did) to back yourselves up?

Once again, Yoong, you'll find a range of correctness. Some of the advice you get here might make you sound a bit quaint to most speakers of present-day English.

No, I don't think you're wrong, contrex. But McTag and I aren't wrong either. Most of my continent would probably agree with McTag and me when we disagree with you, but that just indicates that there are usually several equally "correct" ways to say the same thing.

I tried. I tried. I really did try, but "try as I did" still sounded like English Idiom Modified By ESL Student.

I wouldn't expect to hear this construction from a literate, native speaker.

"Try as I might" is perfectly acceptable.

Yoong has said many times that his preferred flavour of English is British English, and although that may sound quaint to some, it is spoken and written by a very large number of people.

"Try as I did" is perfectly acceptable to those people, especially if they are widely read.

So all those quotes of mine are rubbish?

You keep siding with these "widely read" and "educated" people, which I find rather insulting. Could it be that there may be some widely read and educated people who perhaps don't agree with you on every point? I beg you to consider the possibility that there may.

I read contrex's quoted sentences more closely just now, and I must say they look strange to my eye/ear.

I also consulted my friend, who knows stuff. I disagree with him....he thinks "try as I did" is acceptable, but with a different meaning to "try as I might/may"..for example:

"Try as I did, I could not open the door" means, I tried one or two methods but because I was trying the wrong method, the door would not open. The methods I DID try did not work.

"Try as I might...." on the other hand means I tried every possible method I could think of, but the door remained stuck.

I offer that for your consideration, not because I agree with it. I just think "try as I did" is too strange to bother with.

When it comes to making backing up a statement that this or that phrase or usage is correct or acceptable English I don't think that "my pal who knows stuff" really hacks it, McTag. Neither does the fact that any particular usage sounds funny or not to your ears.

I did not mean to insult anybody by stating that certain usages or constructions are more familiar to people who are more widely read. There are a lot of usages which are fairly literary or bookish.

The evidence is there that "try as I did" is a quite widely used phrase. Bluster all you like, it remains so.

I only come onto this forum for fun, and it is not my idea of fun to pick quarrels.
I offer my opinions, and that is all they are, to learners and others who ask for help. Come to think of it, I even chip in my penn'orth when no help was asked for. All for fun, and in the spirit of helpfulness, and because I have a love for the language.

I come from a background of a lifetime's reading, and I try not to read anything of inferior quality, at that. I am quite satisfied with the education I received btw, and much of my time in latter years was spent in correcting the written English of younger colleagues, products of today's education.

If you disagree with me from a standpoint of siding with "educated" and "well-read" people, then I must take issue with that, and the fun element starts to disappear.

There is plenty of material on the internet which I would not care to put my name to, and a trawl-through will probably turn up plenty of examples which might well fall into this category.

Contrex--



I have an unrepentant, American ear--and probably a dissin' American mouth as well.

Try as he did, he could not change my mind
Try as he might, he could not change my mind

Let's take the tense forward to the present, then it will be clearer

Try as he does, he cannot change my mind. = As hard as he (actually) tries, he cannot change my mind.

Try as he may, he cannot change my mind. = As hard as he may possibly try, he cannot change my mind.

I think you've crawled out on a limb on this one, and it looks mighty thin to me.

I've stated my opinion on this, so no more for now. Maybe some other opinions will weigh in.

Speaking as an old-fashioned lexicographer and having consulted various other venerable speakers and writers with linguistic backgrounds, I find that the consensus is that 'Try as I did' does not come naturally to the tongue, where 'Try as I might' does. The 'feels wrong' intuitive analysis is a perfectly legitimate way of assessing something like this, so I would say, as the American Heritage Dictionary does '75% of the Usage Panel regarded this as substandard'.
I quote from one source: Hm, interesting. It's wrong. Try doesn't have a subject, does it. "Try as he might, …" is correct though, despite the lack of subject. It's just one of those phrases. "did" would need something like: "When he tried, as he did, …" Or "He did try, but …"

And another, by contrast: I can't see anything wrong with this. The usual way would be "Try as he might . . .", but IMO "did" makes more sense. You could say "Pretty as she was, she didn't succeed in turning Alphonse's head," for example.

One of my interlocutors has suggested it's a question of mood, that the subjunctive 'might' is more appropriate than the past.

I have been racking my brains to try to decide exactly why I don't like "Try as he did,..."

I think the phrase is an awkward shortening of some thing like "Try as he might, and he did try,..."

The subjunctive of "might " is for me the key point, meaning that "no matter what I tried, or what I might have tried, all was to no avail."

"Try as I did" has no particular meaning like that, it only refers to what I DID try. Not descriptive enough, in my view, and it misses its intended mark.

I think it lacks style. "Try as I might"--I ask you. If I arrived, in creative mood, at such a thought, I would immediately think "I can't utter such a washed-out cliche on the record.

How I proceeded from there would require some knowledge of what was being attempted to be done and whether the tone needed to be satirical, ironic, concientious, although I'm not very good at that, serious, humorous, and many other possibilities.

One of the difficulties with finding oneself correct in a debate of this nature is that it is rewarding and can easily lead to a stamping into the psyche, as Pavlov and others have shown, of a habit, pleasureable because it presents a display of correct usage, or at least what is felt to be. It has a similar effect that sugar lumps have on donkeys. In more complicated applications it causes some men to spend the weekend mowing the lawns, trimming their edges and collecting all the leaves which have fallen from the trees.

Far better to pause a moment and say to one self "I could express the idea with more depth and novelty if I tried a little harder."

For example-

Mr Hatton's speech to the cameras after he had been knocked out in America recently didn't begin with anything so trite as "Try as I might". And if he can do it surely A2Kers discussing "trying" should be able to.



I really did bust a gut Jeff but no matter how hard I pushed it it was still like trying to pump up a sack of potatoes.

Having said that, I would, of course, accept the adjudication of an old-fashioned lexicographer who has consulted various other venerable speakers and writers with linguistic backgrounds.

There's no names but the clang when they all dropped could be heard up and down the Persian Gulf and must have been deafening at close quarters.

Pay attention, Spendy.

We're discussing whether the phrase "Try as I did,...." is correct or not.

What do you think?

Did I not explain that I would take pains to avoid using it and thus that it is incorrect to some extent although I agree that from a pedantic, boring twit's point of view, one who can always be relied upon not to give a monkey's toss-off about being an amusing companion in this weary journey through our vale of tears, it is probably correct.

Once the cliche gets washed-out, wrung, hung on the line, ironed and hung up in the wardrobe it has a tendency to become a practice of deceit where the trying can easily add up to a feeble effort in actuality and thus the usage, besides being boring, becomes a self-serving assertion.

I don't think you have given enough thought to my post. Which is, of course, your prerogative and which I would fight to the last ditch to preserve your right to exercise, as is often heard said.

Please allow me to analyse my own question.

I tried. I couldn't lift the table.

I did try, but I couldn't lift the table.

Try as I did, I couldn't lift the table.

I feel that there's nothing wrong with 'Try as I did ... '

No, grammatically nothing wrong. But it sounds funny to lots of people. There are many things like that, in every language - so as a teacher I'd say avoid it if possible.