Abortion

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On this 35th anniversary of the Roe v. Wade decision, I would like to share my views on the issue of abortion.

Life begins at the point of conception. No one can deny that after a human being is conceived it will develop into the very same being as those debating this issue. What astounds me is that those who favor abortion went through an identical development stage as the being they are condemning to death. Would these very same people agree that a similiar choice should have been made about their own existence? Abortion today is used primarily as a birth control of convenience because people are too self-centered to take precautions. They prefer their own pleasurable self-indulgence over the care and sanctity of the life they created. What ever happened to taking responsibility for one's actions in this country? Is it too much to ask a woman who has conceived to place the child into adoption? Nine months of discomfort is nothing compared to life in prison for voluntary manslaughter! Does the father of the child have a say in this? And what about the constitution of the United States? Are not all people conceived in this country deserving of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? I believe abortion is a crime against humanity and should be outlawed. We need to overturn the Roe v. Wade decision and get back to cherishing life in this country. For a country that murders it's children cannot be far from self destruction.

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Well, this is your subjective opinion, the law provides us with a different
definition and I am glad it does.

I gather you are not a woman, therefore you have no leg to stand on
what a woman does with her body, and that's a good thing.

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If you read through some of the abortion threads, you will find opposition to everything that you wrote.

I, however, agree with you.

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CalamityJane wrote:

Well, this is your subjective opinion, the law provides us with a different
definition and I am glad it does.

I gather you are not a woman, therefore you have no leg to stand on
what a woman does with her body, and that's a good thing.

Well, this is your subjective opinion....

:wink:

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Not quite Intrepid, it is not against the law to terminate a pregnancy
in the first trimester, thus the jurisdiction doesn't see it as murder
like JoeBialek stated.

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Sorry, Calamity. You are right. I somehow missed that part. Having said that. Not murder in the legal sense, but certainly (at least to some) in the moral sense.

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On this 35th anniversary of the Roe v. Wade decision, I would like to share my views on the issue of abortion.

I am sure glad I was allowed to make my own medical decisions and am grateful that I had a clean, safe hospital and competent physician to help me 35 years ago.

It wasn't an easy decision and still isn't.

The details are no one else's business.

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CalamityJane wrote:

Well, this is your subjective opinion, the law provides us with a different
definition and I am glad it does.

I gather you are not a woman, therefore you have no leg to stand on
what a woman does with her body, and that's a good thing.

Would it really have mattered to you if JOEBIALEK was a woman? You are aware, I'm sure, that there are women who share JOEBIALEK's view.

Putting aside other aspects of the issue, I am interested in the notion that there can be issues of morality or legality that exclude one sex or the other from formulating a valid opinion.

Where is the line drawn on this position?

Quite a few men join quite a few women in believing women should not mutilate themselves or commit suicide. Are only the views of women valid in this regard, and do women have a leg to stand on if they assert that men should not mutilate or kill themselves?

What about a 12 year old girl prostituting herself? Here again, only women can weigh in?

I appreciate the argument that abortion should, legally, be the sole decision of the individual mother, but I fail to understand the significance of gender in the standing of opposing voices. Presumably your argument is founded, to one extent or the other, on the premise that since the choice relates to the woman's body, only she should make the decision, but just because women can or have had children should not make their opinions any more valid when it relates to the body of another woman.

Seems to smack of a certain bitter regard for men, and if the genders were switched I suspect you would have quite a few people charging you with misogyny.

It also seems to me that beyond legal consideration, it is appropriate to view the issue, from a moral standpoint, in terms of what both the mother and father want --- particularly if the couple is in a committed relationship.

I don't see much of future for such a relationship if the mother ignores the wishes of the father. Legally, I suppose she is within her right to do so, but it would be hard to reconcile such an action with professed love for the father. Considerations of the feelings and wishes of one member of a committed couple by the other are very definitely the stuff of our understanding of morality, and I don't see this issue being exempt from that consideration.

Personally I remain quite conflicted on this issue since it really doesn't lend itself to compromise and because I am unable to decide which side of the argument is clearly right.

I certainly appreciate however, that someone who believes human life begins at conception would not be willing to compromise. "Murder" in the second or third trimester is still "Murder" in the first. The law may not see it this way, but if someone does, it makes perfect sense that they would try to have the law changed.

The contrast between pro-lifers and pro-choicers is interesting and possibly instructive:

Pro-lifers cannot compromise. They are not going to accept what they consider murder in the first three months acceptible in the ensuing six just to limit abortion to some segments of pregnancy.

On the other hand, most pro-choicers are content to limits the woman's choice in order to preserve choice. Obviously there are some pro-choicers who are as uncompromising as their counter-parts, but not in the main.

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Quote:

It also seems to me that beyond legal consideration, it is appropriate to view the issue, from a moral standpoint, in terms of what both the mother and father want --- particularly if the couple is in a committed relationship.

I don't see much of future for such a relationship if the mother ignores the wishes of the father. Legally, I suppose she is within her right to do so, but it would be hard to reconcile such an action with professed love for the father. Considerations of the feelings and wishes of one member of a committed couple by the other are very definitely the stuff of our understanding of morality, and I don't see this issue being exempt from that consideration.

Would your views change if you were told that the mother and father were married and both agreed that the pregnancy should be terminated?

Should the morals, beliefs or opinions of others still govern that mother's choice in that case?

How about if in that same committed marriage the father wished the mother to terminate the pregnancy but the mother did not wish to?

How much weight do you apply to the father's wishes in that case? Do the morals, beliefs and opinion of the mother supercede any feelings and wishes of the father or does the mother's choice take precedence?

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CalamityJane wrote:

Well, this is your subjective opinion, the law provides us with a different
definition and I am glad it does.

I gather you are not a woman, therefore you have no leg to stand on
what a woman does with her body, and that's a good thing.

I always found the phrase "what a women does with her body" to be quite interesting and misleading.

Would it not be more accurate to say "What a women decides to do with the LIFE she is carrying in her body" be more accurate?

It is not like we are talking about how a women decides to treat her broken arm.

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woiyo-There are a number of issues. No one can say that what is in a pregnant woman's body isn't life, but is it human life? IMO it is a potential, but in the early part of pregnancy is simply a parasite growning in the mother. Before I get jumped on, I think that this definition expresses what I am driving at:

Quote:

parasite

n.
Biology. An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.

I think that one has to agree that an embryo, and early fetus, qualifies for the definition of a parasite, under the aforementioned definition.

Once the fetus reaches viability, then IMO the rules change. Even so, in the case where the life of the mother is at stake, a partial birth abortion is a sad, but sometimes necessary option. I think that most would agree that if a choice needs to be made, the life of the mother trumps that of the fetus.

An acorn may be a potential oak tree, but it is no tree!

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Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Putting aside other aspects of the issue, I am interested in the notion that there can be issues of morality or legality that exclude one sex or the other from formulating a valid opinion.

Where is the line drawn on this position?

Quite a few men join quite a few women in believing women should not mutilate themselves or commit suicide. Are only the views of women valid in this regard, and do women have a leg to stand on if they assert that men should not mutilate or kill themselves?

What about a 12 year old girl prostituting herself? Here again, only women can weigh in?

I appreciate the argument that abortion should, legally, be the sole decision of the individual mother, but I fail to understand the significance of gender in the standing of opposing voices. Presumably your argument is founded, to one extent or the other, on the premise that since the choice relates to the woman's body, only she should make the decision, but just because women can or have had children should not make their opinions any more valid when it relates to the body of another woman.

Seems to smack of a certain bitter regard for men, and if the genders were switched I suspect you would have quite a few people charging you with misogyny.

Let me assure you, I have no bitterness towards men, at least not for
the ones who are trying to tell me what to do with my own body. For
the others it's more contempt than anything else.

Whatever your morals are pertaining to life, are your own, I do not share them and apparently the majority of people don't share your morals
either, as abortion is legal in this country.

If you don't understand the significance of gender involved in the decision, I suggest you talk to the millions of women who are single mothers and
live on the verge of poverty due to deadbeat fathers. There are exceptions, yes I acknowledge that, yet the majority of single mothers
struggle. Ultimately the children are her responsibility, thus it should
be her responsibility, and hers alone, to decide if she wants to terminate
a pregnancy or not.

This is very simple, and a perfectly legal process. How you perceive
this issue with your own morals is not important, sorry to say. I repeat:
abortion is legalized in the United States!

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CalamityJane wrote:

Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Putting aside other aspects of the issue, I am interested in the notion that there can be issues of morality or legality that exclude one sex or the other from formulating a valid opinion.

Where is the line drawn on this position?

Quite a few men join quite a few women in believing women should not mutilate themselves or commit suicide. Are only the views of women valid in this regard, and do women have a leg to stand on if they assert that men should not mutilate or kill themselves?

What about a 12 year old girl prostituting herself? Here again, only women can weigh in?

I appreciate the argument that abortion should, legally, be the sole decision of the individual mother, but I fail to understand the significance of gender in the standing of opposing voices. Presumably your argument is founded, to one extent or the other, on the premise that since the choice relates to the woman's body, only she should make the decision, but just because women can or have had children should not make their opinions any more valid when it relates to the body of another woman.

Seems to smack of a certain bitter regard for men, and if the genders were switched I suspect you would have quite a few people charging you with misogyny.

Let me assure you, I have no bitterness towards men, at least not for
the ones who are trying to tell me what to do with my own body. For
the others it's more contempt than anything else.

Whatever your morals are pertaining to life, are your own, I do not share them and apparently the majority of people don't share your morals
either, as abortion is legal in this country.

If you don't understand the significance of gender involved in the decision, I suggest you talk to the millions of women who are single mothers and
live on the verge of poverty due to deadbeat fathers. There are exceptions, yes I acknowledge that, yet the majority of single mothers
struggle. Ultimately the children are her responsibility, thus it should
be her responsibility, and hers alone, to decide if she wants to terminate
a pregnancy or not.

This is very simple, and a perfectly legal process. How you perceive
this issue with your own morals is not important, sorry to say. I repeat:
abortion is legalized in the United States!

You are arguing the point you wish to argue, not the one I made.

Not only have I acknowledged abortion is legal, I've not even suggested it should not be. Your declaration of abortion's legality is hardly the rhetorical trump card you believe it to be.

It was you that seemed to believe that JOEBIALEK's gender was important enough to draw into the discussion. I simply questioned why that should be. A question which, I have to add, you have declined to answer. You have offered something of a manifesto about single motherhood, but it doesn't answer the question.

Again, you have taken the position that a man, by virtue of his gender, cannot, with any validity, offer the opinion that abortion is immoral or should be illegal. Even if all of the single mothers in America were the victims you suggest they are, I still don't understand why a man is excluded from consideration of this major issue in America. Obviously, it is not only single mothers who are getting abortions, and abortions are not the only means available to keep single mothers from being pregnant.

You also, deliberately or otherwise, have chosen to misinterpret my comments about the moral aspect of the issue. I did not try and make a case that abortion is immoral, I did question how one might morally reconcile the notion that it is the woman's sole choice and the importance of a mutually supportive committed relationship.

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There will always be abortions. Question is; how safe will they be?

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

IMO it is a potential, but in the early part of pregnancy is simply a parasite growning in the mother.

Quote:
parasite

n.
Biology. An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.

I think that one has to agree that an embryo, and early fetus, qualifies for the definition of a parasite, under the aforementioned definition.

According to the definition above of the word 'parasite,' when does that life inside a pregnant woman's body stop becoming a parasite?

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Finn dAbuzz wrote:

You also, deliberately or otherwise, have chosen to misinterpret my comments about the moral aspect of the issue. I did not try and make a case that abortion is immoral, I did question how one might morally reconcile the notion that it is the woman's sole choice and the importance of a mutually supportive committed relationship.

I noticed you deliberately or otherwise chose to not answer my questions that directly go to the moral reconciliation that it is a woman's sole choice in a committed relationship.

I'm interested in your thoughts on them.

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I am strongly pro-choice.

However, I find it deeply troubling when women say that abortion is not a man's issue. This is complete bullshit.

This is just part of the near complete devaluing of fatherhood. From conception, to birth, to custody... fathers are simply not considered parents.

When are fathers going to be considered parents?

I believe that abortion should be safe and legal.

I am just saying that fathers have a vested interest in the process of reproduction-- from conception through childhood.

My opinion in this important issue counts damn it.

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Here are the questions I posed to Finn. Others are welcome to answer them as well:

Would your views change if you were told that the mother and father were married and both agreed that the pregnancy should be terminated?

Should the morals, beliefs or opinions of others still govern that mother's choice in that case?

How about if in that same committed marriage the father wished the mother to terminate the pregnancy but the mother did not wish to?

How much weight do you apply to the father's wishes in that case? Do the morals, beliefs and opinion of the mother supercede any feelings and wishes of the father or does the mother's choice take precedence?

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do we HAVE to have another one of these threads?

Can people not use the search feature and join a discussion already in progress?

These threads get ugly and judgmental because this topic ends up being nothing more then people trying to push their moral issues on others . NO matter what side you are on.

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ebrown_p wrote:

I am strongly pro-choice.

However, I find it deeply troubling when women say that abortion is not a man's issue. This is complete bullshit.

This is just part of the near complete devaluing of fatherhood. From conception, to birth, to custody... fathers are simply not considered parents.

When are fathers going to be considered parents?

I believe that abortion should be safe and legal.

I am just saying that fathers have a vested interest in the process of reproduction-- from conception through childhood.

My opinion in this important issue counts damn it.

I couldn't agree more with most of your comments. Men are often/usually overlooked, and while it's not "fair", it's for an obvious reason - SHE'S the one going through the physical side of things, while BOTH of them are (perhaps) doing the emotional aspect. Therefore, it has become HER decision. (Of course, there are other factors involved; this is quite simplistic).

Do you really think, however, that she should put her life on hold for 8-9 months for his sake, ie. that he thinks he wants to be a daddy (esp if it was an 'accident')? That's the question I struggle with. Do you really think she should be 'forced' to birth that baby?

It's a minefield, which is why we're still where we're at on this issue.

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