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Does John Edwards need a brain transplant?

 
 
flaja
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Jan, 2008 05:41 pm
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
The healthcare system, literally, cannot afford to provide these services without cost, and so passing laws or enacting regulations that require that Insurers pay for all potentially life saving procedures


Life-extending, you mean. I don't call a procedure that has only a 65% chance of success a year or two afterward to be life-saving. And it would have been life-taking if the liver that would have gone to this girl had not gone to a patient that would have offered a greater chance of success.

Quote:
For some, the easy solution is universal healthcare provided by the government.


Does universal health care in Canada or the U.K. cover things like liver transplants?

Quote:
For patients who are deathly ill, and whose care is being paid for by a third party, there is no treatment with too slim a chance of success or too high a price tag.


Want to bet? What would happen if Cigna is forced to pay for transplants in situations like this and either raises everyone else's insurance rates or goes bankrupt in the process?
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jan, 2008 04:30 pm
After all the nonsensical/ barbaric years the humanity outside USA expect Edwards as a Doctor to get ride of the contageious ailment.
Rama
( I am of the opinion that none can cure arrogance and one sided intellectualism)
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jan, 2008 05:45 pm
flaja wrote:
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
The healthcare system, literally, cannot afford to provide these services without cost, and so passing laws or enacting regulations that require that Insurers pay for all potentially life saving procedures


Life-extending, you mean. I don't call a procedure that has only a 65% chance of success a year or two afterward to be life-saving. And it would have been life-taking if the liver that would have gone to this girl had not gone to a patient that would have offered a greater chance of success.

Semantics - the liver transplant saved her life if only for a a year or two., but you seem to grasp my point. Procedures that cost a fortune, and offer only a small chance for anything other than a brief reprieve will seem a godsend to the patient and family, but they threaten to bankrupt the system.

Quote:
For some, the easy solution is universal healthcare provided by the government.


Does universal health care in Canada or the U.K. cover things like liver transplants?

Good question. I honestly don't know, but that's beside the point. Many people to see the solution to all of our healthcare problems being socialized medicine. I don't necessarily agree with them, but, obviously they exist.

Quote:
For patients who are deathly ill, and whose care is being paid for by a third party, there is no treatment with too slim a chance of success or too high a price tag.


Want to bet? What would happen if Cigna is forced to pay for transplants in situations like this and either raises everyone else's insurance rates or goes bankrupt in the process?

I think you sometime read these posts too quickly and fail to digest what is being written. No matter what Cigna does, patients who are deathly ill and whose care is paid for by a third party (e.g. Cigna) are not going to turn down a potentially life saving procedure because they are concerned it will cause their insurer to raise is rate of even go under.

This is my point. If everyone looks at these situations the way the patients and their families do when poised between life and death, and insist that any third party (public or private) always pay for them rates will skyrocket for everyone and the system will eventually bankrupt.

As long as they are not one of these patients or a family member (and at any given time the overwhelming majority of people are not) Americans are not going to accept spending a third or more of their income on a system that will unfailing pay for extreme cost; low probability procedures.

Folks will deny this now when the it is only the emotional aspect of the issue that confronts them: How could this poor girl, and others like her be allowed to die because insurers and/or healthcare providers don't want to spend the money to save them?

Once the bill comes due, practicality will begin dilute to their passion.

In the same situation as this girl and her family we want and perhaps even demand there be no restraints, but this is not the rational point of view from which to consider the matter.

How many times do we read of would-be rescuers drowning while attempting to save someone else in danger of drowning? People watch rescuers themselves drown and still jump in the water to try and save the victim. Our capacity for empathy and altruism is remarkable, and clearly something we hold in great esteem, but what sense does it make for 10 people to successively drown trying to save someone? At the time it may seem to these people that they had no choice, but anyone who was removed from the emotional intensity of the situation would have to at least question whether the sacrifices made sense.

There are numerous such examples where it is clear that the most reasonable decision in terms of generating the most widespread benefit will not be reached within the heat of the moment or when the outcomes are perceived from an intensely personal point of view.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jan, 2008 05:46 pm
Ramafuchs wrote:
After all the nonsensical/ barbaric years the humanity outside USA expect Edwards as a Doctor to get ride of the contageious ailment.
Rama
( I am of the opinion that none can cure arrogance and one sided intellectualism)


Boy, I'm not sure I understand this one.
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jan, 2008 05:57 pm
Finn
Before i go to bed i wish to get a clarification from you.
I had deeply indulged with your above response but this particular sentense is difficult to understand.

"Our capacity for empathy and altruism is remarkable, and clearly something we hold in great esteem, but what sense does it make for 10 people to successively drown trying to save someone? "
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jan, 2008 08:03 pm
Ramafuchs wrote:
Finn
Before i go to bed i wish to get a clarification from you.
I had deeply indulged with your above response but this particular sentense is difficult to understand.

"Our capacity for empathy and altruism is remarkable, and clearly something we hold in great esteem, but what sense does it make for 10 people to successively drown trying to save someone? "


It is inherent empathy and altruism that leads to people throwing themselves in a body of water in an attempt to save someone, even when they know they too are in danger of drowning, and even when they have seen several would-be rescuers before them actually drown.

This sort of thing happens all of the time, and the qualities that lead to it are highly regarded within virtually all cultures of mankind. When such events take place we speak of heroism, bravery, compassion and self-sacrifice, and we honor in equal measure those who gave up their lives trying to save someone and those that actually accomplish the rescue.

In the moment of crisis when immediate decisions must be made we have the capacity of relying upon inherent virtues to decide our actions, rather than deliberative logic. Again, it is our nature to greatly honor the decisions themselves as well as those who make them.

However, such decisions are not necessarily the most rational or most favorable in a broader sense.

Let's stay with the example of a drowning child. Should the child's mother and father both risk drowning in attempts to save the child? Even if they succeeded would the result outweigh the risk of the alternative outcome to the rest of their children? In certain, actual circumstances, the loss of both parents would doom the orphaned children to a life of hardship and pain. Perhaps removed from the immediacy of the life and death situation, the parents, given time to consider all the ramifications of their actions, would still take the risk of dying themselves to save the child---But perhaps not. Certainly someone not related to the family, but charged with preserving its overall well being, might easily determine that the death of the two parents was too great a price for the family to pay in exchange for the life of one child.

Given the immediacy of the crisis, the instinctual reaction of parents, and the cultural (and perhaps even genetic) underscoring of individual heroics, the parents are likely to make the decision to risk drowning many more times than not. This is to be expected

Similarly, in the case of the young woman in need of a liver transplant we can expect, many more times than not, for the parents to favor any attempt to save their child, regardless of its cost or its chances of success. Of course if the parents alone are required to fund the transplant then whether or not it it is done will depend upon the limits of their finances. We can expect however that most parents will be willing to sell everything they own in an attempt to raise the necessary funds.

If we change the circumstances a bit and we introduce a third party who is responsible for funding the transport (private or public), then we can certainly expect the parents to request, if not demand, funding more times than not.

This does not speak poorly of the parents, but it also doesn't necessarily speak poorly of the third party if it refuses.

The third party, unlike the parents, will come to the decision with a far different point of view. It will not be flooded by strong emotions and instincts. It will be required to view the decision within the context of broader circumstances and interests, and it is very likely to reach its decision through cold logic, not heated impulse.

We has members of our society are not only more capable of approaching the decision more dispassionately than the parents, but we owe it to society to do so --- and particularly so when any measure of sacrifice required will not be born by us or will only be born over time.

Insisting that the third party pay for the transplant in the case in point and all other high cost, low chance procedures may satisfy our empathetic impulses, but it is also likely to result in broader harm for many more people.

Obviously it is very difficult to come up with a bright line between that degree of medical care which is not justifiable and that which is. I would need more facts to reach a decision on this particular case, but I will not automatically condemn the third parties (the insurer or the med providers) for the original decision not to proceed.

I can clearly empathize with the parents in this case and if it was my daughter I would probably follow pretty much the same path they did. My insistence on the transplant being performed, however, would not necessarily make it the most sensible decision any more than deciding to have ten people make successive attempts to save a drowning child, when each of the ten attempts resulted in the rescuers deaths, would be.
0 Replies
 
flaja
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jan, 2008 09:21 pm
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Semantics - the liver transplant saved her life if only for a a year or two., but you seem to grasp my point. Procedures that cost a fortune, and offer only a small chance for anything other than a brief reprieve will seem a godsend to the patient and family, but they threaten to bankrupt the system.


This fact is something that the left cannot comprehend- they expect miracles when they don't believe in God.

This is also a fact that the libertarians don't understand. The free market cannot solve all of society's problems. The libertarian solution would have been for the girl's parents to pay whatever it took to get an insurance policy that would have paid for the girl's liver transplant even though it likely would not have been a long-term success. But the problem with this thinking is that nobody goes into business with the intent of losing money. Insurance companies cannot make a profit (and non-profits cannot remain in operation) if they pay for every hopeless case, which means insurance companies will never offer a policy that covers anything and everything regardless of the cost.

Furthermore, the situation with insurance companies isn't limited to situations as dire as this girl's liver transplant. My mother is on SSI disability due to an illness that is essentially lupus, but not yet diagnosed as such. She needs constant medical care and any insurance company knows that it will lose money if it writes her a policy that covers all of her medical costs. And even with Medicare there is only a limited number of insurance companies that will sell her a supplemental policy.

Quote:
Good question. I honestly don't know, but that's beside the point. Many people to see the solution to all of our healthcare problems being socialized medicine. I don't necessarily agree with them, but, obviously they exist.


Just about any time I hear a discussion of socialized medicine in the U.S. I hear about Canadians coming to the U.S. for heart surgery. And I know that the cancer survival rate in the U.K. is lower than it is in the U.S. and that people have to go to private hospitals in Britain for catastrophic medical care.

Quote:
Folks will deny this now when the it is only the emotional aspect of the issue that confronts them: How could this poor girl, and others like her be allowed to die because insurers and/or healthcare providers don't want to spend the money to save them?


I see jars on cash register counters all the time where people are collecting spare change to pay for somebody's cancer treatment or transplant surgery. But with Medicare and Medicaid, I wonder how many of these cases can be legitimate. In any given year how many people in this country face medical costs that they cannot afford? Just how bad is this problem?

Quote:
There are numerous such examples where it is clear that the most reasonable decision in terms of generating the most widespread benefit will not be reached within the heat of the moment or when the outcomes are perceived from an intensely personal point of view.[/color]
[/quote]

But when we are discussing the issue of healthcare reform, we have the luxury of time during which we can consider a broader range of options for dealing with such situations. Hopefully we can show some self-discipline and refrain from making rash guidelines for dealing with these situations.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jan, 2008 08:21 am
The fact is that these people apparently paid for insurance to provide them with needed health services; the insurance didn't hold up their end of the equation when it came down to it. It should not be up the insurance compainies to make health decisions for their customers; but that is what our health system in the US has come down to.
0 Replies
 
flaja
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jan, 2008 08:28 am
revel wrote:
The fact is that these people apparently paid for insurance to provide them with needed health services; the insurance didn't hold up their end of the equation when it came down to it. It should not be up the insurance compainies to make health decisions for their customers; but that is what our health system in the US has come down to.


I'm sure there was a clause in the policy that gave the insurance company a veto over treatment that has a low chance of success. If insurance companies had to pay for everything we tell them to pay for, they'd go broke and then nobody would have insurance.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jan, 2008 09:18 am
flaja wrote:
revel wrote:
The fact is that these people apparently paid for insurance to provide them with needed health services; the insurance didn't hold up their end of the equation when it came down to it. It should not be up the insurance compainies to make health decisions for their customers; but that is what our health system in the US has come down to.


I'm sure there was a clause in the policy that gave the insurance company a veto over treatment that has a low chance of success. If insurance companies had to pay for everything we tell them to pay for, they'd go broke and then nobody would have insurance.


65% is not that low of a chance.

Quote:
Sarkisyan's four UCLA doctors immediately wrote back to Cigna, appealing the decision. They argued Sarkisyan would have a 65% chance of surviving for six months after the liver transplant, based on studies of similar patients. The doctors reckoned Sarkisyan had an 85% chance of avoiding a recurrence of cancer because of the successful bone marrow transplant.


(from the link)

Not only that; but insurance compainies have a vested interest in denying converage; so they shouldn't be in the position to decide if the treatement is practical or not.
0 Replies
 
flaja
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jan, 2008 11:30 am
revel wrote:
flaja wrote:
revel wrote:
The fact is that these people apparently paid for insurance to provide them with needed health services; the insurance didn't hold up their end of the equation when it came down to it. It should not be up the insurance compainies to make health decisions for their customers; but that is what our health system in the US has come down to.


I'm sure there was a clause in the policy that gave the insurance company a veto over treatment that has a low chance of success. If insurance companies had to pay for everything we tell them to pay for, they'd go broke and then nobody would have insurance.


65% is not that low of a chance.

Quote:
Sarkisyan's four UCLA doctors immediately wrote back to Cigna, appealing the decision. They argued Sarkisyan would have a 65% chance of surviving for six months after the liver transplant, based on studies of similar patients. The doctors reckoned Sarkisyan had an 85% chance of avoiding a recurrence of cancer because of the successful bone marrow transplant.


(from the link)

Not only that; but insurance compainies have a vested interest in denying converage; so they shouldn't be in the position to decide if the treatement is practical or not.


A 65% chance of being alive after 6 months, is a very low chance of success for a girl whose normal life-expectancy, if healthy, would have been about another 50-60 years.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jan, 2008 12:40 pm
Quote:
A 65% chance of being alive after 6 months, is a very low chance of success for a girl whose normal life-expectancy, if healthy, would have been about another 50-60 years
.

Point taken; nevertheless; I don't think insurance companies should be the ones to decide if a person gets treatment or not. The figure of 65% was arrived at by studies done by their company.

The whole system is whacked and needs to be redone somehow. (not claiming to have answers but surely if enough educated people put their heads together; they will find a better way.)
0 Replies
 
rabel22
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jan, 2008 01:25 pm
We had a chance to adjust the medical system in this country when Clinton was elected president but the republicans and some democrats with the backing of the insurance companies rejected the plan out of hand without really inspecting it. The republicans cherry picked the drug plan and implemented a partial drug plan that helped the drug industry keep the prices artificially high. Republicans are business orientated. Any middle class person who thinks the republicans are passing laws for us are delusional.
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jan, 2008 02:45 pm
revel
"The whole system is whacked and needs to be redone somehow"
System is rotten to the core( when you compare with other friendly countries)
Thanks for the above sentense.
0 Replies
 
flaja
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jan, 2008 04:07 pm
revel wrote:
Point taken; nevertheless; I don't think insurance companies should be the ones to decide if a person gets treatment or not.


Insurance companies should have the lion's share of the say when insurance companies are the ones paying the bill. And remember, even if the girl had had the transplant and didn't have any of the normal complications of such a procedure, she would likely need far more medical care than anyone else would need for the rest of her life- all of which the insurance company would be expected to pay.

Quote:
The figure of 65% was arrived at by studies done by their company.


According to the Forbes link this figure was determined by the girl's doctors, not Cigna.

Quote:
The whole system is whacked and needs to be redone somehow. (not claiming to have answers but surely if enough educated people put their heads together; they will find a better way.)


Assuming that there is a better way, which is something I doubt.
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jan, 2008 04:15 pm
Be not a doubting Damsel.
Leave your footprints before you depart.
A rational, critical request
Rama
0 Replies
 
flaja
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jan, 2008 04:15 pm
rabel22 wrote:
We had a chance to adjust the medical system in this country when Clinton was elected president but the republicans and some democrats with the backing of the insurance companies rejected the plan out of hand without really inspecting it. The republicans cherry picked the drug plan and implemented a partial drug plan that helped the drug industry keep the prices artificially high. Republicans are business orientated. Any middle class person who thinks the republicans are passing laws for us are delusional.


If drug prices are artificially high because there is a government program that will buy people drugs, why would all healthcare costs not be artificially high if we had a government program that bought people healthcare in general? And if a government program were to impose price caps, why wouldn't people leave the medical profession while hospitals shut down and drug companies went out of business?
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jan, 2008 04:36 pm
Anyway this thread is about Edwards.
I am quite sure( irrespective of his mistakes and the views of intellectuals) that he will replace all the POLLUTERS:
Cook your soup
sip it hot.
leave us alone
V R not satisfied with your compassionate corporate controlled consume-oriented callous culture.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jan, 2008 07:34 pm
Ramafuchs wrote:
Anyway this thread is about Edwards.
I am quite sure( irrespective of his mistakes and the views of intellectuals) that he will replace all the POLLUTERS:
Cook your soup
sip it hot.
leave us alone
V R not satisfied with your compassionate corporate controlled consume-oriented callous culture.


Returning to Edwards and the case of the transplant:

His supporters or people who share his professed view of this case (such as revel) cannot be overly faulted for not understanding the economics and legalities of insurance, but not so Edwards. He knows very well he has at best oversimplified the matter, and at worst (and most probable) distorted it to trigger an emotional response from his audience.
This is the definition of a demagogue, and Edwards is surely that.
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jan, 2008 07:43 pm
Finn
Thanks.
I observe your country's political dram from Germany.
I am quite sure that Edwards will be there to challenge theConsumers .
I have a thread down below.
I wish that Edwards fulfill my WISH AND
THEREBY THE MAJORITY OF NON-aMERICAN DREAMS
0 Replies
 
 

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