Democracy and Freedom

Go on Setanta. Have a go at the Germans. The French are easy with a couple of broad brush strokes.

Not timid are you?

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Setanta wrote:

ebrown_p wrote:
This is the funniest post on A2K this year...

Quote:
The only people that are inherently suitable for democracy are the British and Americans.

That one cracked me up, too. The Greeks invented the word, but they were just screwin' around, they didn't actually believe in democracy. And as anyone can plainly see, the French are no good at it either. Take Chirac for example. The French people opposed the invasion of Iraq, so Chirac told Bush to piss off. If he had been a true democrat, he would have realized that more Americans were in favor of the invasion than French were opposed to it, and he would have rolled over for the Shrub.

Don't even get me started on the Germans . . .

I wonder what Flaja thinks of the Jews (the Jewish democracy that is)....

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

You called me ....

I mean, when the Swiss started their democracy, at least the gun nuts should like: it all began with a shooting competition.
Okay, not really a gun, and he missed the boy but ... well, that should bring them quite close to the category of inherently suitables. And 1291 (though 1499 de facto).

The Swiss have had something like 3 national constitutions in the last 160 years. Americans have had just 1 in the past 220 years, and England's Parliament goes back 12 centuries.

Furthermore, the current Swiss Constitution includes provisions that are based on Swiss legal decisions that are based on the European Court of Human Rights and European Convention on Human Rights. The Swiss may have a democracy, but they don't seem to be very interested in maintaining their national sovereignty.

Furthermore Switzerland doesn't allow freedom of conscience. The Swiss don't have a constitutional right to discriminate against someone on the basis of lifestyle. The Swiss Constitution essentially says that you must like everybody even if you find their behavior to be morally reprehensible. A legitimate democracy cannot mandate such a thing. The Swiss don't have freedom of thought.

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"A constitutional right to discriminate" is a prerequisite for a democracy.

Who knew?

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Ooops. I'd thought you were talking about democracy.

But it is constitution.

And a second oops: Human Rights are obviously something diametrically opposed to democracy.

You really should sell your ideas. Surely, the Völkische Beobachter will pay a lot for them.

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ebrown_p wrote:

Setanta wrote:
ebrown_p wrote:
This is the funniest post on A2K this year...

Quote:
The only people that are inherently suitable for democracy are the British and Americans.

That one cracked me up, too. The Greeks invented the word, but they were just screwin' around, they didn't actually believe in democracy. And as anyone can plainly see, the French are no good at it either. Take Chirac for example. The French people opposed the invasion of Iraq, so Chirac told Bush to piss off. If he had been a true democrat, he would have realized that more Americans were in favor of the invasion than French were opposed to it, and he would have rolled over for the Shrub.

Don't even get me started on the Germans . . .

I wonder what Flaja thinks of the Jews (the Jewish democracy that is)....

The Israelites began as a patriarchy. This was turned into a theocracy which became a kingdom that existed as an independent state for only a very short while. So when have the Jews (outside of Britain and the U.S. and the modern state of Israel) had a democracy? The Jews learned democracy under the tutelage of their Anglo-American brethren.

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Why do I just now remember this Israelian Abuzzer/A2Ker who posted from a psychiatric hospital a couple of years ago?

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flaja wrote:

The Jews learned democracy under the tutelage of their Anglo-American brethren.

Quote:

In contrast, Israeli democracy is careful not to talk about the constitutional status of the Arabs within its borders. It has established a devious system of laws and regulations to expropriate from them rights reserved only for Jewish citizens, and even for Jewish non-citizens. The real estate laws are an example of this, as are the actions of the Jewish National Fund and the Jewish Agency, which behave as if the state were only for Jews.

Democracy for Jews only

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There's no such thing as freedom in a society.

"To live outside the law you must be honest."

Bob Dylan.

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Let's try this one.

Are African-Americans "inherently suited" for Democracy?

If so, then I would assume that Africans would be as well (since many Africans were under the "tutelage" of the English just as the Jews were).

Seeing as an African-American has a good chance to become our next president... I think this is an interesting question.

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ebrown_p wrote:

"A constitutional right to discriminate" is a prerequisite for a democracy.

Who knew?

It goes to freedom of thought. Switzerland is run by thought police, which is just as dangerous as a Gestapo or KJB ever were. Tyranny in the name of political correctness is still tyranny.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Ooops. I'd thought you were talking about democracy.

But it is constitution.

And a second oops: Human Rights are obviously something diametrically opposed to democracy.

You really should sell your ideas. Surely, the Völkische Beobachter will pay a lot for them.

Human rights- you mean the right to express your true opinion about someone- which the Swiss don't have?

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

flaja wrote:
The Jews learned democracy under the tutelage of their Anglo-American brethren.

Quote:
In contrast, Israeli democracy is careful not to talk about the constitutional status of the Arabs within its borders. It has established a devious system of laws and regulations to expropriate from them rights reserved only for Jewish citizens, and even for Jewish non-citizens. The real estate laws are an example of this, as are the actions of the Jewish National Fund and the Jewish Agency, which behave as if the state were only for Jews.
Democracy for Jews only

So are you saying that the Jews/Israelis are or are not a democratic people?

My understanding is that Israeli citizenship is not limited to Jews and that should Israel's Islamic citizens ever decide to participate en masse in Israeli elections they would overwhelm Israel's Jewish minority.

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ebrown_p wrote:

Let's try this one.

Are African-Americans "inherently suited" for Democracy?

There are no African-Americans, only Americans who happened to be of African descent. And they are suited for Democracy in that they are American.

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E wrote-

Quote:

If so, then I would assume that Africans would be as well (since many Africans were under the "tutelage" of the English just as the Jews were).

The problem was, E, that they broke out from the tutelage like a primary school class when the teacher has had to leave the room for a while.

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BTW-

I heard that there was a law in Switzerland which said you had to keep the street in front of your house clean and tidy.

Mrs Thatcher, the previous record holder as paragon of female leadership rectitude, in modern times I mean, expressed approval of that Swiss institution. They have Tidiness Wardens and On-The-Spot Fines.

It's all to do with banking. If they had a 70,000 billion barrel oil reserve under their soil they would be non-existent.

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spendius wrote:

BTW-

I heard that there was a law in Switzerland which said you had to keep the street in front of your house clean and tidy.

Mrs Thatcher, the previous record holder as paragon of female leadership rectitude, in modern times I mean, expressed approval of that Swiss institution. They have Tidiness Wardens and On-The-Spot Fines.

It's all to do with banking. If they had a 70,000 billion barrel oil reserve under their soil they would be non-existent.

Banking or money laundering?

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Setanta wrote:

Jim wrote:
I wish I had a warm fuzzy fealing inside that the bosses in Washington D.C. had at least this much discussion on the subject before invading Iraq.

I wouldn't be so sure. If you visit the web site of the Project for a New American Century you'll see in their archives that they have been urging the invasion of Iraq since 1997, and bringing democracy and freedom to the middle east is not high on their list of priorities (if it appears at all, and i don't recall it). It appears that having military bases in southwest Asia was their prime goal. You'll also see that founding members include the luminaries of this regime--Dick Cheney, Richard Perle, Rummy, Wolfowitz, just to name a few.

I have no doubt the bosses in Washington D.C. were discussing the invasion of Iraq, and planning the military aspects for some time before the actual event. What I am not so certain of is that they gave enough consideration to what happens after the conventional military actions are over. The cultural issues that have been dogging us ever since. The question "is what we are trying to accomplish even feasible?"

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Setanta wrote:

The Greeks invented the word, but they were just screwin' around, they didn't actually believe in democracy. And as anyone can plainly see, the French are no good at it either.

Thomas Jefferson had a few ideas about whether the French were ready for democracy. From "The Louisiana Purchase" by Thomas Fleming, page 165:

"In New Orleans, meanwhile, the new U.S. rulers were facing a hostile populace. Not a little enmity was generated by the government that President Jefferson had persuaded Congress to approve for the province. It contained not a trace of democracy. Every official, from the governor to judges, was appointed by the president. There was no provision for trial by jury. Jefferson has decided that the French Creoles lacked the education and experience to participate in democracy."

Of course, the results of the latest French elections prove beyond any doubt that the French are fully able to participate in democracy in the present.

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What are "we" trying to acomplish in Iraq??

Who are "we".

Iraq is a great success for THEM.

Billions in profit for the whole gang, Nobodies going to jail And all the checks have cleared.

They are laghing all the way to the bank. We pay for it. 5000 Iraqi vets have commited suicide.

"we" are the suckers. We don't even know weve been conned yet. Halliburton is in Dubai now to avoid lawsuits.

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