New softener settings/setup..what do you think

Andy CWS wrote:

Your softener should always give you 0 gpg soft water IMO. Gary Slusser

Andy CWS wrote:

I agree with Gary on this point. A softener design should be able to provide soft, treated water WHENEVER you need it. The key word "always" has, in the past, been a point of contention. I am glad he understands that now. Andy Christensen, CWS-II

Design? LOL, we aren't talking "design". Yes we agree that a softener should always produce 0 gpg soft water but as you know, that isn't our "point of contention".

It is your misstating and misunderstanding the SFR of softeners and then your inaccurate statements as a Kinetico salesman that Kinetico softeners always produce 0 gpg soft water WHENEVER and especially when one of the two resin tanks is in regeneration.

Example, reading from the label on a Kinetico Model 30; 7 gpm Service Flow Rate @ 15 psi drop. That is the peak SFR gpm and the person must suffer a 15 psi pressure loss to get it! What is the constant SFR gpm at say 2-3 psi pressure loss?

Most American houses with one pre 1990 bathroom flow higher than that! Not to mention today's houses with 2.5 bathrooms as the 'norm', with larger tubs and two person showers and/or body sprays, and maybe 2 or more children at home. That's why I say most Kinetico softeners are undersized and you say they aren't; that's another "point of contention" between us.

0 Replies

you can argue about SFR in your other threads Smile

but i was curious if you knew how to set my machine for the 15 you recommended and what the goal of it is (knock the boiler 'clean' etc)

0 Replies

luckydriver wrote:

you can argue about SFR in your other threads

Well said. I'm afraid that has been a problem here before.

An undersized softener occurs when it can not do what it is supposed to do. I don't get that from the follow-ups on my installs. Anyway, luckydriver is not interested in opinions that have nothing to do with his problems. Try to focus on the issues.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

0 Replies

i started a charge now just because it was below 100 gallons on the dial and figured why not...i'm not sure of the exact sequence of things but am going in from time to time and seeing what the dial says. I assume at some point i should be able to look down the tube and see the water lowering and being pulled into the resin tank. I looked down ther e with a flashlight and you can see some chunks of salt at the bottom. Are you supposed to be able to see chunks of salt in teh bottom of that? Maybe thats causing a clog?

0 Replies

There shouldn't be any chunks of salt or anything down that tube. You may need to empty the brine drum and give it a good cleaning.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

0 Replies

i think i'd let them dump out the 200lb of salt and do that...but thanks for confirming there shouldnt be anything down there. I was pretty sure not as i remember looking down the culligan one a few times.

this shouldnt be happening with a brand new machine..ugh

i disconnected the line at the top of the tube and felt suction...and then reconnected it and the water did keep being drained into my laundry tub..so i guess the water is getting sucked back in...but i dont get why there are chunks of salt..shouldnt they have dissolved?

0 Replies

luckydriver,

The 4" white tube in the brine tank where the float lives is called the brine well. There should be no salt in that brine well.

Did your softener come with a cover for the brine well? If not, you need one because it's easy when adding salt to the brine tank to drop some salt into the brine well.

To change the salt dose in a Fleck 5600 Econominder (IIRC, that's what you have) the setting is a little lever in the back of the control valve. Remove the back cover of the 5600 and use a light to look closely at the lever and the markings proximate to it. Loosen the screw and move the lever to the desired salt dose. Replace the cover.

OR an easier way for the purposes of this procedure is to add water to the brine tank to make the 15 pound salt dose and leave the salt setting on the 5600 alone. One gallon of water dissolves 3 lbs of salt so the present salt dose of 6 lbs = 2 gallons of water in the brine tank. Adding an additional 3 gallons of water to the brine tank will be the same as adding 9 lbs more salt. So, the 2 gallons already in the brine tank (6 lbs of salt) and the additional 3 gallons (9 lbs of salt) you add = a total of 15 lbs of salt. If you do it this way wait a couple hours after you add the extra 3 gallons to the brine tank before you regenerate so the salt can dissolve to maximum concentration in the new volume of water.

Changing the salt dose to 15lbs and doing two back to back regenerations with as little water use between them as possible will return the resin to full softening capacity. After that, reset the salt dose to what you determined was correct if you changed it or do nothing if you just added extra water as in my second example.

Your water should be 0 hard... no ifs, ands, or buts. If there is still hard water in your water heater then drain it and it will refill with soft water. It may take weeks or months for the soft water to counteract the hardness that may have built up in your water heater but constantly fiddling with the softener's settings won't help. It will only introduce another variable into the diagnostic process.

Don't determine softness or hardness from feel, especially at .5g hard... use test strips or another test. This is simple chemistry and easy to measure and know for sure.

If the water stays at .5g hard all the time then either the softener is not operating properly and needs adjustment or repair OR hardness is leaking through because the softener's (dreaded) SFR is too low to service the house.

You are having more problems than you wanted BUT, it seems your dealer is willing to work to get things right. Give the dealer the opportunity to service what he sold you.

Perhaps the best thing to do is concentrate on resolving the problems with your dealer and stop posting for second and third opinions for the time being. Second guessing the dealer from thousands of miles away is counterproductive and too often a waste of time as we can't see what is really going on.

Compose your questions and get together with the dealer and have him/her address your concerns. Have the dealer go back to square one and recheck every connection and setting. Have the dealer explain the settings to you and why he chose those settings.

I hope this helps you.

0 Replies

justalurker wrote:

luckydriver,

The 4" white tube in the brine tank where the float lives is called the brine well. There should be no salt in that brine well.

Did your softener come with a cover for the brine well? If not, you need one because it's easy when adding salt to the brine tank to drop some salt into the brine well.

To change the salt dose in a Fleck 5600 Econominder (IIRC, that's what you have) the setting is a little lever in the back of the control valve. Remove the back cover of the 5600 and use a light to look closely at the lever and the markings proximate to it. Loosen the screw and move the lever to the desired salt dose. Replace the cover.

OR an easier way for the purposes of this procedure is to add water to the brine tank to make the 15 pound salt dose and leave the salt setting on the 5600 alone. One gallon of water dissolves 3 lbs of salt so the present salt dose of 6 lbs = 2 gallons of water in the brine tank. Adding an additional 3 gallons of water to the brine tank will be the same as adding 9 lbs more salt. So, the 2 gallons already in the brine tank (6 lbs of salt) and the additional 3 gallons (9 lbs of salt) you add = a total of 15 lbs of salt. If you do it this way wait a couple hours after you add the extra 3 gallons to the brine tank before you regenerate so the salt can dissolve to maximum concentration in the new volume of water.

Changing the salt dose to 15lbs and doing two back to back regenerations with as little water use between them as possible will return the resin to full softening capacity. After that, reset the salt dose to what you determined was correct if you changed it or do nothing if you just added extra water as in my second example.

Your water should be 0 hard... no ifs, ands, or buts. If there is still hard water in your water heater then drain it and it will refill with soft water. It may take weeks or months for the soft water to counteract the hardness that may have built up in your water heater but constantly fiddling with the softener's settings won't help. It will only introduce another variable into the diagnostic process.

Don't determine softness or hardness from feel, especially at .5g hard... use test strips or another test. This is simple chemistry and easy to measure and know for sure.

If the water stays at .5g hard all the time then either the softener is not operating properly and needs adjustment or repair OR hardness is leaking through because the softener's (dreaded) SFR is too low to service the house.

You are having more problems than you wanted BUT, it seems your dealer is willing to work to get things right. Give the dealer the opportunity to service what he sold you.

Perhaps the best thing to do is concentrate on resolving the problems with your dealer and stop posting for second and third opinions for the time being. Second guessing the dealer from thousands of miles away is counterproductive and too often a waste of time as we can't see what is really going on.

Compose your questions and get together with the dealer and have him/her address your concerns. Have the dealer go back to square one and recheck every connection and setting. Have the dealer explain the settings to you and why he chose those settings.

I hope this helps you.

ty for the informative response...i just am at this on here to try to get independent info because the guy that came said the .5 is normal to get by but i really didnt know if it was true. And if they sold me too 'small' of a softner i'll be pissed. I did ask the guy if he would make the water more soft and he said he couldnt. I didnt understand that really but he was the expert!

as far as the feeling...well i had a great feeling initially so thats why i say it changed somehow. Unsure why it changed

yes there is a cap for the well , i honestly forget if it was on or not but i took it off today to look at it regardless...and will put it back on. but wont it dissolve even in the well?

And if i change the meter on the back of the unit..does that change the float level or would i have to do that myself? I dont understand the purpose of the setting on the back and if it's critical to change or just do the water thing you suggested?

I'd measure the float level if i should change the rear setting but sounds like i should just use the adding water method if it's reliable. sounds like i should wait overnight to have the salt dissolve with the extra water just to be sure.

What is the best way to measure the .5? The strip method seems not so good so i guess a liquid tester? Thats how he did it..(well both ways actually). But i find liquid is reliable for spa so may as well buy another kit for that for softener

oh and i will deal with the dealer but they are over 1/2 hour away so i cant ever really go in and complain lol...but will call them back...just i dont get why this guy friday didnt check any connections etc. I do think the PH story was BS and i wish i knew it should be zero hardness for sure. his talk about hi ph and scummy feeling wasnt very nice lol

0 Replies

luckydriver wrote:

yes there is a cap for the well , i honestly forget if it was on or not but i took it off today to look at it regardless...and will put it back on. but wont it dissolve even in the well?

The salt in the brine well will ultimately dissolve but it can interfere with the float.

luckydriver wrote:

And if i change the meter on the back of the unit..does that change the float level or would i have to do that myself? I dont understand the purpose of the setting on the back and if it's critical to change or just do the water thing you suggested?

The float mechanism in the brine well has nothing to do with the salt dose. It is an overflow safety mechanism and the built-in air check prevents the control valve from sucking air during the brining stage of regeneration.

The salt dose is set by the little lever in the back of the control valve. The elapsed time the control valve flows water to the brine tank through the BLFC (Brine Line Flow Control) is what determines the salt dose. Remember, a gallon of water into the brine tank equals 3 lbs of salt... 2 gallons of water equals 6 lbs and so on.

luckydriver wrote:

I'd measure the float level if i should change the rear setting but sounds like i should just use the adding water method if it's reliable. sounds like i should wait overnight to have the salt dissolve with the extra water just to be sure.

Adding the water is the easy way to do what you want.

luckydriver wrote:

What is the best way to measure the .5? The strip method seems not so good so i guess a liquid tester? Thats how he did it..(well both ways actually). But i find liquid is reliable for spa so may as well buy another kit for that for softener

Test strips won't indicate .5 grains of hardness. Perhaps, take a water sample to another water treatment dealer and have them measure it without telling them anything.

luckydriver wrote:

oh and i will deal with the dealer but they are over 1/2 hour away so i cant ever really go in and complain lol...but will call them back...just i dont get why this guy friday didnt check any connections etc. I do think the PH story was BS and i wish i knew it should be zero hardness for sure. his talk about hi ph and scummy feeling wasnt very nice lol

Take the time to explain your reservations and questions in detail. If the dealer can't/won't answer them to your satisfaction then tell him that if the problems are not resolved and your water is not reliably 0 hardness you'll expect him to remove the softener and refund your money.

0 Replies

justalurker wrote:

The float mechanism in the brine well has nothing to do with the salt dose. It is an overflow safety mechanism and the built-in air check prevents the control valve from sucking air during the brining stage of regeneration.

.

oh ok thanks. I swore there were 2 floats in the well but am too lazy to get up and look now..thought there was one way down low that stopped the water during recharge and a bigger one up high as an emergency cutoff ...thought there was in the culligan too. And i thought when i adjusted the culligan i read the manual and had to measure how much to move a certain float to let more water in. But that was a while ago and i may be wrong

I"m gonna add water tonight and recharge in the morning. no sense playing with the 6lb thing if i dont need to lol.

Thanks again for taking the time to explain stuff to me.

0 Replies

luckydriver wrote:

I"m gonna add water tonight and recharge in the morning. no sense playing with the 6lb thing if i dont need to lol.

Thanks again for taking the time to explain stuff to me.

Add the extra 3 gallons tonight and regen in the morning. After that regen is done add 3 gallons, wait two hours, then regen again with as little water usage between the two regenerations as possible.

That will get the resin back to maximum softening capacity.

Please keep us informed... and you are welcome.

0 Replies

I'm in between 15 lb regens now..just added my 2nd three gallons of water. But getting back to the statement about potential hardness in my hot water boiler: I dont know how, if it's possible at all to drain it. But I 'think' it's just the 'small' metal box that sticks out the side of my furnace and it was an add on. I say this because i have an unused box that is indicative of a time of day electric hot water heater being hooked up at one point.

So is there any way to tell if the hot water boiler has hardness built up inside it? I guess thats why you check hot/cold water hardness, which is what he did. And he got .5 either way. To my untrained mind that means there is no hardness in there or hot would have been more than cold but i'm unsure

one other thing i wanted to say about all this, in case it didnt come out before, is that even with my 20+ year old culligan i had more bubbles and a softer feeling to the water. So i expect at least that with this new unit

i went to hach and cant seem to find a kit that goes to .5 hardness...i guess i can call around locally to see what i can find in addition to calling my dealer back

0 Replies

luckydriver,

Because the water is .5g hard both hot and cold put the water heater out of your mind for the time being

Once you get the two regens done the resin will be up to full hardening capacity.

You have to fix the leaking toilet and make sure that no other plumbing fixture or appliance is leaking water to drain while you're not looking.

If the dealer rechecks the softener and everything is operating correctly and the water still tests at .5 g hard perhaps the dealer's test kit is wrong. Maybe the components of the kit expired and are giving a false reading because .5 g is very hard to measure outside of a lab. You can double check that by having a water sample tested by someone else.

Could be a tiny leak in the bypass valve letting hard water seep across the bypass.

Working with the dealer, do one thing at a time in a logical progression to rule out possible causes.

If no other problem or cause is found then it could be that the SFR of the softener is too low and hardness is leaking through... I know you don't want to hear that but it is possible.

Regardless, it is the responsibility of the dealer to get you zero hardness water. If he can't or won't then a refund is in order.

0 Replies

yes now that i've done some internet research, i cant find a single kit for .5 so maybe he was wrong but then why tell me? oh well.

I still want my soapy feeling back and more bubbles though...is that going to come back at 0 hardness because that is really my goal here. I dont mind hardness per se except for the lack of soap and i hate the instant washing off of everything and how skin/hair are turning out now.

0 Replies

luckydriver wrote:

yI still want my soapy feeling back and more bubbles though...is that going to come back at 0 hardness because that is really my goal here. I dont mind hardness per se except for the lack of soap and i hate the instant washing off of everything and how skin/hair are turning out now.

I don't believe it will... because I believe you have 0 hardness now.

Not being there to sit in your bath tub the "feel" of softened water is subjective and open to wide interpretation.

I gather that you were happy with your water's feel when the old Culligan was on line? Perhaps the Culligan had been problematic over a period of months or even a year? Slowly it failed more and more so you never noticed the subtle changes in the water's feel until the Culligan finally failed.

This new softener is doing it's job and the water is soft but doesn't feel like it did with the Culligan.

Try this, approach your soft water as if you've never experienced it. Cut back on soap, detergent, and shampoo or try a different soap and shampoo. Give yourself a few weeks to get used to the water.

A perceived difference is real but often can simply be perceived and not real.

0 Replies

well reality now is i wash my hands and instantly lose the soap. The culligan worked fairly until the end, i only had to bypass when the value started pouring out water but even then, i'd turn it back on to have some soft water for the occasional shower. (and thus my laundry floor got soaked). And the feel was obvious even with the 20 yr old resin. Somethign was enabling me to get soapy water

But i dont understand why you are saying a 0 hardness here wont bring back the same soft water (ie hard to get off soap) that i had with the very aging culligan. Also the 1st few weeks of this new unit it was 'soapy' for me and i was thrilled. Thats why i do think something is funny here.

ok i'm worried about something now..it's been over 2 hours (i didnt look at the unit at all during this 2nd regen or track water levels) and the extra 3 gallons either didnt get sucked up or it refilled to the same level as i manually filled it. But it's not that smart is it lol?

so i guess i have to do another regen as i dont want a continual 15lb use

0 Replies

If the soft water from this new softener satisfied you after the install for "the first few weeks" then you didn't like the water something did change... either the water or your perception.

luckydriver wrote:

ok i'm worried about something now..it's been over 2 hours (i didnt look at the unit at all during this 2nd regen or track water levels) and the extra 3 gallons either didnt get sucked up or it refilled to the same level as i manually filled it. But it's not that smart is it lol?

so i guess i have to do another regen as i dont want a continual 15lb use

If the regeneration is over and you have the same level of water in the brine tank as you had after you added an additional three gallons then something is wrong.

The control valve should have sucked all the brine into the resin tank during regeneration and then replaced the water in the brine tank with only the 2 gallons (6 lbs of salt) it was set to do.

Either the brine pickup is clogged and the brine wasn't all sucked out for regeneration OR there is an air leak at the brine line connection at the float assembly, in the line, or at the control valve OR there is a clog where the brine line connects to the control valve. There is/may be a screen in there that is clogged.

I recommend you get the dealer there to resolve all your concerns or get your money back.

0 Replies

brine watch 2008 continues...it is definitely sucking down the water level now, i am watching it every few minutes. Cant wait to see how much it fills back up then. the water was so high i couldnt see the salt at the bottom of the well. lol

I know you probably hate conjecture but what if i somehow do get this to zero and dont have the same soapiness and assume it's 'real' not perceived....does that mean i am screwed and should go get the old culligan out of the landfill lol

0 Replies

luckydriver wrote:

you can argue about SFR in your other threads

but i was curious if you knew how to set my machine for the 15 you recommended and what the goal of it is (knock the boiler 'clean' etc)

No argument, just facts and then some whining from someone that has been told on another forum "you may be too sensitive to be here".

Although I'm glad I was able to shame others into helping you while I was gone some of the info you've been given is wrong.

The brine well does not fit tight to the bottom of the tank so salt can get in under it or you poured some salt down it if you left the lid/cap off it. That is not a problem and can not cause any problems.

There can not be two floats in the well of any softener. You're seeing the top of the brine pickup air check down in the bottom of the well on the far end of the brine pickup tube.

Your second 15 lb regen may not have received 15 lbs because the float may be stuck in the closed position. Put the control into slow rinse/brine draw and push down on the float and make sure it sucks salt brine with no air bubbles moving through the brine line to the control valve. If there are, a fitting is sucking air and you have to tighten it but not over tighten it.

The dealer may have guessed the half grain of hardness based on his test. That hardness is probably from your old softener allowing scale to form and then the soft water now is dissolving it into the soft water. That's why you had more suds right after installation and then not.

Test for hardness at the softener on the outlet side of the BP. Or the closest cold water faucet.

The pH comment, I see now you mention the "I can't rinse the soap off" feeling or something like that He probably was explaining the cause of the feeling, which is tied to high pH, which has nothing to do with a softener.

The suggestions to "get your money back"... so far there is no actual proof that your softener is not giving you 0 gpg, and you say it 'worked' based on the feeling for the first weeks.

The loss or lack of the no slippery feeling is not a valid test, many people with 0 gpg soft water don't have the slippery feeling.

So far there has not been a ppm or mg/l hardness test done. It takes 17.1 mg/l or ppm to make up one gpg.

BTW, the WQA says that a softener is working as long as there is no more than 1 gpg of hardness in the softened water. I say it should be 0 gpg. And Andy agreed; he is a WQA Certified Water Specialist 11.

0 Replies

Gary Slusser wrote:

The brine well does not fit tight to the bottom of the tank so salt can get in under it or you poured some salt down it if you left the lid/cap off it. That is not a problem and can not cause any problems.

can you check that statement again? you are saying the well should NOT fit tight? I just checked and found the water way down and I think it will start to refill soon. Well thing is, i just noticed that the well is on an angle (i never signed up for that hosting site to post pics but probably should). And now it appears more salt chunks came in on the one side of the well. Are you saying that whether salt goes down the well or under the well it cannot cause any problems? seems to me if it gets under there the line can become clogged up.

Gary Slusser wrote:

The dealer may have guessed the half grain of hardness based on his test. That hardness is probably from your old softener allowing scale to form and then the soft water now is dissolving it into the soft water. That's why you had more suds right after installation and then not.

i sure hope you are right..i just grilled my wife on the softener performance and she agreed it changed since we 1st had it. Said it was hard to get soap out but now it just comes right out.

Gary Slusser wrote:

The pH comment, I see now you mention the "I can't rinse the soap off" feeling or something like that He probably was explaining the cause of the feeling, which is tied to high pH, which has nothing to do with a softener.

well ph is 7.1 according to him and my spa kit tested it around 7. If i ever get the soapy feeling back i will definitely test the PH...i just find it hard to believe his explanation that my twp. changed wells in the past month and thats what his excuse for no suds was

Gary Slusser wrote:

The suggestions to "get your money back"... so far there is no actual proof that your softener is not giving you 0 gpg, and you say it 'worked' based on the feeling for the first weeks.

The loss or lack of the no slippery feeling is not a valid test, many people with 0 gpg soft water don't have the slippery feeling.

except the guy said it's .5 Smile

so thats his proof hot/cold that it's not zero. And yes you are right, it worked the 1st few weeks so i guess the SFR or whatever is correct or woudlnt even have worked right for a few days right? And if the slippery feeling isnt a valid test, what in the culligan could cause such a slippery feeling because i definitely had it then (you said PH isnt controlled by softeners though so i'm at a loss )

Gary Slusser wrote:

So far there has not been a ppm or mg/l hardness test done. It takes 17.1 mg/l or ppm to make up one gpg.

BTW, the WQA says that a softener is working as long as there is no more than 1 gpg of hardness in the softened water. I say it should be 0 gpg. And Andy agreed; he is a WQA Certified Water Specialist 11.

at least we all agree it should be zero. I just have to figure out how to test it now Smile

fortunately i have an excellent lab locally so i will call them tomorrow and ask them if they have a very good kit that will help me out.

So how does one get a higher PH and more suds?

0 Replies

New softener settings/setup..what do you think

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know