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The ontological assumptions of science.

 
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jan, 2008 07:30 am
fresco wrote:
Now my problem with your "questions" is that you are like the Azande in so far that your rationality is entrenched in a paradigm of "ontic reality" which "exists" independent of "observers". You do not see that as A paradigmatic rationality but THE rationality. You therefore cannot even begin to accept statements like Maturana's that "information does not exist for an organism interacting with its medium, only for an observer involved in a descriptive activity in another domain." For you there is no distinction between "activity" and "description of activity", or beween "adaptation to a perturbation" and "acting on information". For you there is no distiction between "medium" (the organism's domain) and "environment" (an observer's domain) You are like the Azande who see their "reality"(of Witchraft) being all pervading.

If everyone's rationality is equally valid, then why are you trying to convince us that we're wrong? Isn't our rationality just as valid as Maturana's?
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jan, 2008 08:07 am
I did not say anything about right or wrong. I said paradigms shift. They shift because old ones cease to have consensual support. i.e. they are superceded or delimited by ones of "greater functionality" or "greater range of applicability" or even "greater elegance". It is my contention that Maturana's system is representative of such a forward shift since it applauds the local functionality of normal science whilst at the same time pointing out the limits and pitfalls of overestimating such functionality. I am clearly not alone in my contention given the profusion of the literature on the subject and the expansion of the paradigm beyond "biology" into many academic studies of social discourse. Furthermore, such a shift not only supports our thinking about some of the more paradoxical findings of "science" (as in QM) but has a reciprocal relationship to the nature of "philosophy" itself. (as in Wittgensteins "language games").
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jan, 2008 09:58 am
Wasn't it Thomas Kuhn who popularized the idea of paradigm shifts in science? I believe Kuhn used that concept mainly as a perspective on the history of science. Some epistemologists began talking about a "Kuhnian" view to replace the "Popperian" view. However, Kuhn himself told an interviewer: "I am not a 'Kuhnian'."
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jan, 2008 10:31 am
fresco wrote:
I did not say anything about right or wrong.

Well then your sociological analogy was inapt, wasn't it? After all, you said: "The point made by anthropologists is that Westerners cannot claim a 'superior' rationality, merely a different one." If that's the case, then it is equally the case that Maturana cannot claim a "superior paradigm," merely a different one. On the other hand, if Maturana and you are claiming that this paradigm is superior, then what's the basis for that superiority?

fresco wrote:
I said paradigms shift. They shift because old ones cease to have consensual support. i.e. they are superceded or delimited by ones of "greater functionality" or "greater range of applicability" or even "greater elegance".

I think that's an accurate summary of Kuhn's position, but then that suggests that Maturana's "paradigm" of reality would have to have greater functionality or is, in some other sense, more "satisfactory" than the current realist one, and I fail to see that. Indeed, realism is far more functional than any idealist version of reality -- something that even Berkeley probably suspected.

For Kuhn, paradigms shift when the insoluble problems of the previous paradigm are solved by the successor. So what problems does Maturana's paradigm solve that realism can't?

fresco wrote:
I am clearly not alone in my contention given the profusion of the literature on the subject and the expansion of the paradigm beyond "biology" into many academic studies of social discourse.

Whether you are alone or the member of a large group of like-minded people is completely irrelevant. You and your numerous intellectual comrades might all be wrong.
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fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jan, 2008 01:17 pm
Realism "fails" at the level of particle physics with issues like complementarity. superposition and entanglement. Maturana describes how such "paradoxes" might be interpretated as a function of the nature of observation. The extra "issues" covered range from the very nature of "life" through an original description of "cognition" and "language" to a systemic approach to ecological and sociological issues!!!.... Ambitious?...... Of course !
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Terry
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jan, 2008 08:21 pm
JLNobody wrote:
I can accept the existence of an "ontic reality" if it includes both the observer and observed as an interactional unity--much as the Cosmos is at both ends of the telescope. I do not accept a reality that is bifurcated into something objective "out there" and something subjective "in here". The subjective is an objective fact and the objective world is seen as such in terms of our grand intersubjective paradigmatic consensual strategy: Culture.

I do not think that you, I, or anyone else is completely separate from the rest of reality and of course we interact with that which we observe. But there is a consciousness whose apparent source is this one particular body and its feelings, and its ability to observe the universe is severely limited by the senses and space-time coordinates of this body. The part of the universe I can directly sense and control stops at the end of my fingertips (and toes). I can will my hand to move to my teacup, but not the teacup to approach my hand. I don't know if you would consider that to be a bifurcation, but how else would you characterize it?

I can empathize with you and imagine what it is like to be you, but I cannot feel what you feel, see what you see, or think what you think. If what is "in here" were not so distinct to me from what's "out there", I might be able to comprehend non-dualism as you do. As it is, I can only consider it intellectually and must discount it as logically inconsistent with what I think I know.
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Terry
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jan, 2008 08:35 pm
Fresco, instead of throwing out red herrings (such as casting aspersions on my ability to understand Maturana/non-dualism and trivializing my questions), please respond to each of the points I raised -- if you can. How can "observers" reach a legitimate consensus if they simply refuse to discuss the inconsistencies in their respective beliefs?

But you can't address my questions without admitting that your assertions are either untrue or fundamentally illogical, can you?

Another question: Suppose that virtually all observers agree that an ontic reality exists. Wouldn't that in itself cause it to be "true"?
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jan, 2008 10:15 pm
Terry, you say "I do not think that you, I, or anyone else is completely separate from the rest of reality...."
JLN: I perceive that you and I are COMPLETELY one with the rest of reality."

Consider your belief that "you" actually will your body to make certain movements. It certainly seems to be so, but look more carefully and you might see that there is no agent of actions, only actions which are interpreted in terms of agency--part of the mythology of ego.

True, "you" cannot feel what "I"* am feeling, nor can I feel yours. That is part of the configuration of our unity, not proof of our metaphysical separation.

* see how our language biases our thoughts?
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fresco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jan, 2008 12:41 am
Terry,

Red Herrings?........just look at the wording of your "questions" with respect to the statement below. Smile

Within the paradigm "truth, "logicality" and "cause" are not a priori concepts. They are epiphenomena of "interaction".

In order to comprehend this some reading is essential. These links are a bit simpler than M himself. Your "consensus question" will be answered by the concept of "structural coupling" which you need to build up to from first principles.

http://dissertations.ub.rug.nl/FILES/faculties/ppsw/1998/a.l.goudsmit/c2.pdf

http://www.oikos.org/vonobserv.htm

If you do manage to understand these references you should note that another aspect of the paradigm is the deconstruction of "self" as "controller" (another epiphenomenon). I mention this with respect to your comments to JLN.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jan, 2008 08:14 pm
It might be of interest to note that the 1925 prediction of the Bose-Einstein condensate was first empirically shown in 1995.

The Bose-Einstein condensate can exist with far greater sums of mass than simply at the atomic / subatomic level; in fact well into the "normal" range of matter! Yipes....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bose%E2%80%93Einstein_condensate
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fresco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Jan, 2008 01:08 am
Chumly,

Yes...the relationship between a mathematical model and "predicted observation" is truly fascinating.

In terms of the Maturana discussion we have a non-linear model (systems theory) in which linear models can play component roles. Perhaps an idea of this (outside Maturana's content) comes from neurology in which neural networks could either be viewed as a bunch of logic gates involved in linear processing, or alternatively as a holistic non-linear state transition device with the inclusion of non-neural components such as the endocrine system.

The philosophical issue ultimately rests on how we assess the status of "a vantage point".
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Jan, 2008 01:39 am
Not to denigrate at all your point about "predicted observation" as that's very interesting and I'll have to think some on that, however.....

I was suggesting the philosophical implications that some may associate with QM (but in general is countered by the argument that QM only applies on the atomic / subatomic level) may be not the case any more, due to the demonstration of the Bose-Einstein condensate.

So.....philosophical considerations as to how QM affects perception/reality may indeed have applicability to man's "macro world".

Why?

Because the results of QM have now been proven to not be limited to effects on the atomic/subatomic level. Sort of a macro-scaled version of the potential philosophical implications behind Schrodinger's Cat!

Thus Bose-Einstein condensates suggest that reality on a human scale may be scientifically shown as a matter of perception (at least in the case of Bose-Einstein condensates).

FWIW some of the better more modern SF touches on the philosophical implications of QM.

Disclaimer #1: None of the above I find wholly convincing but it's fun and the existence of Bose-Einstein condensates does perhaps lend a certain credence to your views.

Disclaimer #2: I am in no way a QM whiz or a philosophy whiz but I don't mind entertaining ideas.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Jan, 2008 02:12 am
Chumly,

In as much that the model predicts an interaction between observer and observed I agree.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Jan, 2008 02:25 am
Bose-Einstein condensates actually now exist regardless of what model is used to describe them. Predictive modeling is not needed per se as empiricism will suffice in this case.
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fresco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Jan, 2008 04:12 am
The subtle metaphysical point involves the nature of "existence".

Once "the face of Jesus" has been perceived on the shroud by S, it is practically impossible for S not to perceive it. We are consensual S's.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Jan, 2008 09:58 am
Fresco, in addtion to our consensual dependency for meaning, there may be some inherent mechanism directing thought processes. For example: TRY to drink a glass of water without thinking of the left eye of an alligator. Laughing
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fresco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Jan, 2008 01:01 pm
Even worse...I'll be thinking "His left or My left". Smile
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jan, 2008 04:48 pm
Uh-oh......the ontological assumptions of humor!
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Terry
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jan, 2008 07:12 pm
Fresco, I read your references. They did not provide satisfactory answers to any of my questions:

What "censorship committee" refused to read Maturana's material, and why?

If there is no ontic reality, where did the observers come from? (Maturana's theory does not tell us where the autopoiectic system's structures and organization come from in the first place.)

How do they "bring forth" an imaginary world if there is no pre-existing reality? Where did they get the knowledge to create it? Why do so many observers create worlds in which they are unhappy?

How did molecules exist and function before the languaging observers had any concept of them?

How do the observers communicate with each other if there are no actual photons to carry information back and forth? By magic?

If the environment does not actually exist, how can the observer have any potential interactions with it?

Quote:
What if the object that is radiating its physical influences into the sensory receptors of the experiencing organism is the outcome of a consensual construction? If we are interested in what happens before any second order consensus has been attained, then we should not presuppose the physical objects, as we perceive them, to be the causal agents of any sensory impressions!


How do fish and other non-languaging animals interact with the world if there is no ontic reality? (according to your first reference, dogs do not perceive sticks as objects since their actions are "a feature of their structural coupling to their respective media." No explanation of why dogs chase quasi-objects which are nothing but consensual figments of our collective imaginations. Of course the dogs and the chasing are merely descriptions by observers and do not actually exist either.)

What is the functional value in claiming that there is no ontic reality, when we have to deal with the world as if it is really there anyway?

Can observers create or change reality simply by agreeing on what is true? Do you know of any instances where this has been documented?

Quote:
Eventually we always need other people for the confirmation of our impressions. Solitarily we cannot bring forth objects.
...
Though the constitution of objects is not a solitary affair, this does not mean that the mere act of naming an object in a conversation, and agreeing on it, would bring it into existence. Though objects do arise during the recursive coordination of actions, each of the interacting individuals is having his own bodily existence in the first place. And it is in the course of each person's "praxis of living", as Maturana (e.g.
1987a, p. 326) calls it, that new perturbations may pop up that are to be dealt with and compensated.


Suppose that virtually all observers agree that an ontic reality exists. Wouldn't that in itself cause it to be "true"?

Why do people die in automobile accidents? If there is no ontic reality and the consensus of all of the victims, police, paramedics, doctors, and family members is that they should live, who got together and decided that they would die?

Did canals exist on Mars while people believed in and talked about them, only to vanish when better telescopes were invented?

Quote:
Finally, Maturana's notion of 'illusion' is of our interest. According to him, illusion is not distinguishable from 'correct' perception "because a closed neuronal network cannot discriminate between internally and externally triggered changes in relative neuronal activity. This distinction pertains exclusively to the domain of descriptions in which the observer defines an inside and an outside for the nervous system and the organism." (Maturana, 1978, p. 46). Therefore, the discovery of an illusion is not so much the replacement of a perception (hence to be considered as 'erroneous') by a more correct perception, but rather the decision by an observer to discard the previous perception in favor of the current. When, later on, the observer again decides that his current perception is also an illusion, it will be a matter of just replacing it, not a matter of coming more close to reality 'as it really is'

If anyone had any illusions about Maturana's works, this paragraph alone is reason enough to discard them. His work lacks any scientific basis and relies on unsubstantiated assumptions and irrational arguments.

Some gems from the readings: Infants do not actually "see" their mothers until they have language to describe her. Mice are not objects to cats. Courting birds do not signal to each other. Body language is not a real language. A rubber ball does not shatter because we froze it and dropped it, but rather its state determines the way it deals with perturbations. The adaptive capacity to compensate perturbations is what Maturana calls cognition.

And best of all:
Quote:
Vico, the review said, had produced an excellent exposition of his philosophy but had not furnished a proof of its truth. For a constructivist who has deliberately discarded the notion that knowledge should correspond to an independent ontological "reality", the request of such a proof is an absurdity because he could not supply it without contradicting the central thesis of his philosophy, namely that knowledge cannot and need not reflect an ontological world but must be judged by its function in the experiential world and by its coherence.
0 Replies
 
Terry
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jan, 2008 07:20 pm
Chumly wrote:
I was suggesting the philosophical implications that some may associate with QM (but in general is countered by the argument that QM only applies on the atomic / subatomic level) may be not the case any more, due to the demonstration of the Bose-Einstein condensate.

So.....philosophical considerations as to how QM affects perception/reality may indeed have applicability to man's "macro world".

Why?

Because the results of QM have now been proven to not be limited to effects on the atomic/subatomic level. Sort of a macro-scaled version of the potential philosophical implications behind Schrodinger's Cat!

Thus Bose-Einstein condensates suggest that reality on a human scale may be scientifically shown as a matter of perception (at least in the case of Bose-Einstein condensates).


BECs only form under extreme conditions in a lab and I have no idea why you would think they are applicable to the perception of reality on a human scale:
Wikipedia wrote:
Compared to more commonly-encountered states of matter, Bose-Einstein condensates are extremely fragile. The slightest interaction with the outside world can be enough to warm them past the condensation threshold, forming a normal gas and losing their interesting properties.
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