biodiesel

I know of two people with grease cars, not biodiesel - straight veggie oil they pick up at local diners. Takes a person who likes to tinker to keep the cars running, but the owners seem to love them.

For the first time we are using a biodiesel mix in our home (oil) heating system. We joined a small co-op that makes the stuff, my husband didn't like the idea of making it in our basement. So far, so good. Cheaper than the stuff from Saudi Arabia and I just have to make a monthly run to collect waste oil as part of the co-op deal., You can read a little more about the general idea here:

Corn is definitely NOT the way to go - it takes as much fuel to make the biodiesel as you get in the end. We already have a dead zone the size of New Jersey where the Mississippi meets the Gulf of Mexico from the run off pollution of the corn growers.

French fry grease is only a drop in the proverbial bucket and what is now free will probably soon be sold to the highest bidder if home biodiesel production continues to rise.

I've never heard anything about mixing biodiesel with another fuel. What kind of fuel oil are you using for heat? It may be something that people in the South won't recognize.

If you don't use organic methods to grow the oil crops, would growing oil crops have the same effect on the environment as the corn does? I know that corn is fertilizer -intensive where soybeans can make a good portion of their own fertilizer by taking nitrogen out of the air, but industrial soybeans may be just as bad for the environment as industrial corn is.

The last thing I want to see is the Exxons and Texacos of the world take over the biodiesel market. Biodiesel is the ideal diy, local self-reliance technology. Ending our dependence on big corporations would be the more important reason for using biodiesel; energy conservation would be secondary.

Raw or refined vegetable oil, or recycled greases that have not been processed into biodiesel, are not biodiesel and should be avoided. Research shows that vegetable oil or greases used in CI engines at levels as low as 10% to 20%, can cause long-term engine deposits, ring sticking, lube oil gelling, and other maintenance problems and can reduce engine life. These problems are caused mostly by the greater viscosity, or thickness, of the raw oils (around 40 mm2/s) compared to that of the diesel fuel for which the engines and injectors were designed (between 1.3 and 4.1 mm2/s). To avoid viscosity-related problems, vegetable oils and other feedstocks are converted into biodiesel. Through the process of converting vegetable oil or greases to biodiesel, we reduce viscosity of the fuel to values similar to conventional diesel fuel ( biodiesel values are typically between 4 and 5 mm2/s).

Green Witch wrote:

I know of two people with grease cars, not biodiesel - straight veggie oil they pick up at local diners. Takes a person who likes to tinker to keep the cars running, but the owners seem to love them.

I know that you use vegetable oil straight off the farm in diesel engines. In fact the diesel engine was invented in 1900 and farmers used vegetable oil that they grew themselves since oil refineries didn't produce diesel fuel until the 1920s. But technically vegetable oil that isn't recycled isn't called biodiesel. I've also heard about people who use waste vegetable oil in diesel engines without processing it other than filtering out solid matter. I don't know what the benefits of treating the waste oil to make biodiesel are supposed to be. It may cause less wear and tear on your engine or something of that nature.

For the first time we are using a biodiesel mix in our home (oil) heating system. We joined a small co-op that makes the stuff, my husband didn't like the idea of making it in our basement. So far, so good. Cheaper than the stuff from Saudi Arabia and I just have to make a monthly run to collect waste oil as part of the co-op deal., You can read a little more about the general idea here:

French fry grease is only a drop in the proverbial bucket and what is now free will probably soon be sold to the highest bidder if home biodiesel production continues to rise.

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The last thing I want to see is the Exxons and Texacos of the world take over the biodiesel market. Biodiesel is the ideal diy, local self-reliance technology. Ending our dependence on big corporations would be the more important reason for using biodiesel; energy conservation would be secondary.

I'd disagree with this. Most people aren't going to cook their own biodiesel. To make it viable it has to be mass produced and available at stations just as gasoline is now. There will be no mass acceptance of it if the vehicle owner has to run home to refill their tank. Billy-Bob isn't going to buy into biodiesel if he can't take his family on the annual trip from NJ to FL to visit Disneyland and he sure isn't going to tow a fuel tanker with a few hundred gallons of home brewed biodiesel behind him. If people want to make their own no on eis going to stop them. But it will never be a mass market item if that's the only way to obtain it either.

fishin wrote:

Quote:

The last thing I want to see is the Exxons and Texacos of the world take over the biodiesel market. Biodiesel is the ideal diy, local self-reliance technology. Ending our dependence on big corporations would be the more important reason for using biodiesel; energy conservation would be secondary.

I'd disagree with this. Most people aren't going to cook their own biodiesel. To make it viable it has to be mass produced and available at stations just as gasoline is now. There will be no mass acceptance of it if the vehicle owner has to run home to refill their tank. Billy-Bob isn't going to buy into biodiesel if he can't take his family on the annual trip from NJ to FL to visit Disneyland and he sure isn't going to tow a fuel tanker with a few hundred gallons of home brewed biodiesel behind him. If people want to make their own no on eis going to stop them. But it will never be a mass market item if that's the only way to obtain it either.

Can't argue with that - we do need a creation and distribution system. My husband and I decided not to mix our own bio because it's not a completely stable process, and accidents can happen. The fuel is volatile if not handled properly.

However, instead of the Corporate Energy Weasels controlling the show, I wish a small alternative energy system could be created. It would consist of a local energy company making and distributing the fuel. Maybe local farmers could grow the plant material. A family could own a gas (biodiesel) station just as they do now, only they would be buying the fuel from a local source instead of Exxon/Mobile/Sunoco etc. Such a system could be established all over the US - thus BillyBob could drive his family from Trailerville, Arkansas to East Jesus, Nebraska without worrying about running out of fuel.

I know that you use vegetable oil straight off the farm in diesel engines. In fact the diesel engine was invented in 1900 and farmers used vegetable oil ....

Biodiesel is similar to ethanol as far as the quantity needed to replace other fuels. IOW, it would take about the same amount of corn to produce 20 gallons of ethanol as it would to produce 20 gallons of biodiesel.

But ethanol costs roughtly $1.75/gal to produce whereas biodiesel costs slightly more at $2.00/gal.

I'd disagree with this. Most people aren't going to cook their own biodiesel. To make it viable it has to be mass produced and available at stations just as gasoline is now.

There will be no mass acceptance of it if the vehicle owner has to run home to refill their tank.

Billy-Bob isn't going to buy into biodiesel if he can't take his family on the annual trip from NJ to FL to visit Disneyland and he sure isn't going to tow a fuel tanker with a few hundred gallons of home brewed biodiesel behind him.

If people want to make their own no on eis going to stop them. But it will never be a mass market item if that's the only way to obtain it either.

flaja wrote:

I know that you use vegetable oil straight off the farm in diesel engines. In fact the diesel engine was invented in 1900 and farmers used vegetable oil ....

You must mean a different engine than that invented by Rudolf Diesel.

fishin wrote:

Biodiesel is similar to ethanol as far as the quantity needed to replace other fuels. IOW, it would take about the same amount of corn to produce 20 gallons of ethanol as it would to produce 20 gallons of biodiesel.

I don't know why anyone would use corn oil as a diesel fuel. Corn oil is too valuable for other uses and thus would be too expensive to put into diesel engines.

I don't know anything about the relative oil per acre production rates for various oil crops. Can you shed any light on this? According to the episode of Dirty Jobs mustard seed oil is the most chemically similar to petro-diesel fuel of all of the vegetable oils.

But ethanol costs roughtly $1.75/gal to produce whereas biodiesel costs slightly more at $2.00/gal.

If biodiesel gets 40 miles to the gallon, what does ethanol get?

Also what is the net energy value of ethanol made from corn? Everything that I have ever heard about corn-based ethanol says that the energy in the ethanol is less than the energy needed to turn corn into alcohol. Turning corn into ethanol means a net energy loss.

fishin wrote:

I'd disagree with this. Most people aren't going to cook their own biodiesel. To make it viable it has to be mass produced and available at stations just as gasoline is now.

Why not let it be made by locally-owned companies or non-profit co-ops? Just because you cannot or will not do something for yourself doesn't mean that you automatically have to have a big corporation do it for you.

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There will be no mass acceptance of it if the vehicle owner has to run home to refill their tank.

Let's see: 40 miles to the gallon with a 10 gallon tank means you can travel 400 miles between fill-ups. Home will do for most people.

Billy-Bob isn't going to buy into biodiesel if he can't take his family on the annual trip from NJ to FL to visit Disneyland and he sure isn't going to tow a fuel tanker with a few hundred gallons of home brewed biodiesel behind him.

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If people want to make their own no one is going to stop them. But it will never be a mass market item if that's the only way to obtain it either.

Corporations must love you. Why does biodiesel need to be a mass market item? The only mass market thing needed for biodiesel is growing the crop and taking the oil out of it. And even this could be done on a localized basis for some parts of the country through community supported agriculture.

We can't even get people to accept wind energy systems that don't produce any toxins at all...

There is a table listed here that goes through various crops and lists the typical production on a per acre basis.

I am fully aware of that. And it isn't an apples/oranges comparison. It is a recognition of the fact that 90% of the vehicles currently on the road burn gasoline.

Those vehicles will never be converted to biodiesel so you will never convince their owners to invest in biofuels if you don't provide some benefit to them directly.

You can generate all the biodiesel in the world but if someone owns a gasoline vehicle and burns natural gas to heat their home they won't use a drop of it. The ratio of diesel/gasoline cars many change in the future but it isn't going to happen in any significant amount any time soon.

Biodiesel doesn't "get" anything. The mpg obtained is by the vehicle. The VW Jetta diesel conversions typically get 50mpg. A Ford F-350 gets 18-20 and a typical tractor trailer truck gets ~3-4 mpg All of them can (and have) run on biodiesel. So MPG is a poor measure of comparison.

Both require more energy to produce than they create. The net loss in a corn -> ethanol conversion is ~29%. The net loss in soy -> biodiesel conversion is ~27%.

There is NO energy currently known where there is no net loss in conversion to a useable form.