Ann Boleyn - Witch or Pawn?

Henry was considerably younger than Catherine (spelled with a "C" darlin', not a "K"), and had already reached the conclusion that he would need to divorce her if he were to get a male heir. He began secret negotiations with the Pope to this end in 1527. He did not marry Anne Boleyn until they were joined in a private ceremony in 1532--they were publicly married in 1533. While some people have speculated that Henry wanted to divorce Catherine in order to marry Anne, one needs to examine his motive for marrying Anne, or anybody else--which was to provide a male heir for the Tudors. The first Tudor King was Henry VII, the father of Henry VIII. Henry Tudor VII had married Elizabeth of York, and had married his daughter Margaret to King James IV of Scotland, and had married his oldest son Arthur, the Prince of Wales, to Catherine of Aragon--and all of these were diplomatic moves to solidify the position of a fledgling dynasty which had been founded in battle.

Marrying Elizabeth of York had unified the two sides of the Wars of the Roses, Lancaster (which Henry Tudor represented) and York. Marrying his daughter to James IV of Scotland served to remove or at least reduce a threat from the north--and Scotland was then and long had been an ally of France, with whom the English had only recently concluded the Hundred Years War. Marrying his son Arthur to Catherine of Arragon united his house to that of the most powerful monarchy in Europe--Spain.

Henry VIII was no less concerned with the establishment and preservation of the Tudor dynasty. If it had not been Anne Boleyn, it would have been someone else.

To refer to Anne as a "witch" is disgusting, and the more so as one assumes you are yourself a woman.

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Dagmaraka is on her way to Europe right now, but when she gets there and checks in, she'll likely have a thing or two to say about this subject. I'll just wait here quietly until then.....

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Bathseba, if you want a really good insight into Henry and his court, I suggest your read Antionia Fraser's book "The Wives of Henry the VIII". It's an excellent overview of each wife and the motives behind Henry's actions.

If you want just a fun read about the time period, try Philipia Gregory's series of novels about the Tudors.

In the big picture, Anne, as an individual, had little to do with Henry's break with the church. I doubt anyone thought to even ask her opinion. It was all about Henry's obsession with power, the lure of sucking up the church's wealth and Henry's dislike at being told what he could or couldn't do in order to establish his dynasty.

Sorry to say, it was easier to have a woman killed than get a divorce at the time. I always thought the greatest injustice comes from the fact that it is the male contribution that determines the sex of a child. Anne gave birth to a girl because Henry did not do his part. If they knew then what we know now, perhaps Henry would have been the one on the chopping block.

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Setanta wrote:

Henry was considerably younger than Catherine (spelled with a "C" darlin', not a "K"),

Thanks, darlin'! It is also spelled with a 'K' according to bbc.uk website. They ought to know. English has Anglo/Saxon roots and Katherine is spelled with a K in Germany. That's all beside the point, anyway....

and had already reached the conclusion that he would need to divorce her if he were to get a male heir. He began secret negotiations with the Pope to this end in 1527. He did not marry Anne Boleyn until they were joined in a private ceremony in 1532--they were publicly married in 1533. While some people have speculated that Henry wanted to divorce Catherine in order to marry Anne, one needs to examine his motive for marrying Anne, or anybody else--which was to provide a male heir for the Tudors.

Certainly he wanted an heir. But Ann was an intelligent woman and well versed in theology. Who put the bug in Henry's ear that his marriage to Catherine/Katherine was sinful because she was his brother's wife? He had been married to Catherine/Katherine for about 20 years when he met Ann. Ann was also a Protestant, not a Catholic. She also refused to be his mistress for six years; she was holding out for marriage and being crowned Queen. Of course the powers at that time had full knowledge that this marriage would cause a major upheaval between Protestant/Catholic. So yes, an heir was equally important, but so was making the Church of England the state religion - which it still is.

The first Tudor King was Henry VII, the father of Henry VIII. Henry Tudor VII had married Elizabeth of York, and had married his daughter Margaret to King James IV of Scotland, and had married his oldest son Arthur, the Prince of Wales, to Catherine of Aragon--and all of these were diplomatic moves to solidify the position of a fledgling dynasty which had been founded in battle.

Agree.

Marrying Elizabeth of York had unified the two sides of the Wars of the Roses, Lancaster (which Henry Tudor represented) and York. Marrying his daughter to James IV of Scotland served to remove or at least reduce a threat from the north--and Scotland was then and long had been an ally of France, with whom the English had only recently concluded the Hundred Years War. Marrying his son Arthur to Catherine of Arragon united his house to that of the most powerful monarchy in Europe--Spain.

Henry VIII was no less concerned with the establishment and preservation of the Tudor dynasty. If it had not been Anne Boleyn, it would have been someone else.

Yes, he wanted to see a continuation of the Tudor dynasty, and he also, by marrying Ann, created the Act of Succession which established the king as the supreme head, by renouncing papal authority.

You don't think that this might have been a motive for divorcing C of Aragon as well?

To refer to Anne as a "witch" is disgusting, and the more so as one assumes you are yourself a woman.

Touchy touchy, Setanta! My reference to Ann as a witch was not meant to be 'disgusting' as you assume. I'm not unfamiliar with Wicca, nor does it disgust me as it seems to disgust you. My reference is from articles -here's one here from

www.bbb.co.uk/history/british/tudors/anne_boleyn_04.shtml -

Sorcery

The Tower of London where Anne Boleyn was executed At Anne's trial, presided over by her uncle, the Duke of Norfolk, she was accused of acting the 'libertine' before her marriage to Henry. So many factors worked against the Queen, reinforcing the view that she was a disciple of Satan who had 'bewitched' Henry with sorcery. Anne's minor physical defects, namely an extra digit on her hand and a prominent neck mole added to the belief that she was a 'she-devil'. Above all, her inability to produce a healthy male heir condemned her further. Despite inaccuracies relating to dates when Anne was supposed to have conducted her affairs, the belief that as a witch she could materialise in any place at any time invalidated any such evidence from being used in her defence. SOURCE

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The thought that someone would be characterized as a witch is disgusting to me, as is the character of the tissue of lies with which Boleyn was condemned. As for "Wicca," i consider it a rather pathetic joke.

Catherine of Aragon, at Tudor History-dot-com

Catherine of Aragon at Wikipedia

Catherine of Aragon at Luminarium-dot-org

Catherine of Aragon at BBC-dot-co-dot-UK

It is absurd to describe Anne Boleyn as a Protestant, and absurd to suggest that she was responsible for Henry's decision to seek an annulment of his marriage to Catherine. You might make a flimsy case that she suggested to him a grounds for requesting the annulment--but it would be thin indeed.

If you know so much about the subject, why did you come here to ask anyone about it?