Thomas wrote:
Remember the ladies and gentlemen in various Muslim countries who burned Danish fags
Fag burning is so 1980s
Brandon9000 wrote:McTag wrote:Brandon9000 wrote:Every freedom is messy and has some cost. Freedom of speech and assemby, for example, occasionally require the police to guard marchers or demonstrators for unpopular causes, which costs money. Once you accept the idea that everyone is entitled to personal liberty, then the right to defend one's person follows immediately, and the statistics regarding gun violence are interesting, but irrelevant.
You might be surprised to learn that I feel exactly the same as you do about self-defence.
But here, our policemen don't carry guns. Our burglars don't either. And so I don't feel I need one.
It's a whole different approach.
Actually, I don't own a gun, never have, and probably never will.
I'm talking in the abstract, but I do feel strongly about the principle.
If one knew for sure that one would never be confronted with violence,
then there would be no need to be armed, but one can't really know that.
I think it's perfectly reasonable to have a gun in one's house just in case
that terrible day ever comes. I don't want to hurt anyone, but if I or my
wife were threatened, and I had a gun, and the level of the threat put me
in fear of imminent harm, I would use it.
Point of information:
Is it more acceptable and more reasonable
for u or your wife to become the victims of predatory violence
out in the street, like the late Kitty Genovese
( such that u don 't need defensive guns there ) ?
David
Actually, carrying is a pain in the neck, too. It automatically puts you on good behavior, because, it would be terribly embarassing to have ol' Betsy bouncing around on the pavement if you got into what should have been a minor skirmish. Most, if not all, states that permit conceled carry also prohibit firearms in establishments that serve alcohol, either by the drink, or by the bottle. In many states, this could include your grocery store, drug store, or friendly convenience store. It gets awkward.
OmSigDAVID wrote:Brandon9000 wrote:McTag wrote:Brandon9000 wrote:Every freedom is messy and has some cost. Freedom of speech and assemby, for example, occasionally require the police to guard marchers or demonstrators for unpopular causes, which costs money. Once you accept the idea that everyone is entitled to personal liberty, then the right to defend one's person follows immediately, and the statistics regarding gun violence are interesting, but irrelevant.
You might be surprised to learn that I feel exactly the same as you do about self-defence.
But here, our policemen don't carry guns. Our burglars don't either. And so I don't feel I need one.
It's a whole different approach.
Actually, I don't own a gun, never have, and probably never will.
I'm talking in the abstract, but I do feel strongly about the principle.
If one knew for sure that one would never be confronted with violence,
then there would be no need to be armed, but one can't really know that.
I think it's perfectly reasonable to have a gun in one's house just in case
that terrible day ever comes. I don't want to hurt anyone, but if I or my
wife were threatened, and I had a gun, and the level of the threat put me
in fear of imminent harm, I would use it.
Point of information:
Is it more acceptable and more reasonable
for u or your wife to become the victims of predatory violence
out in the street, like the late Kitty Genovese
( such that u don 't need defensive guns there ) ?
David
By saying that it's reasonable to keep a gun in the house,
I didn't mean that it's unreasonable to carry one.
I do think that it's perfectly within someone's rights to do so,
although, practically speaking,
I understand that it takes a lot of effort to get a permit to carry a concealed weapon.
Actually, carrying is a pain in the neck, too. It automatically puts you on good behavior, because, it would be terribly embarassing to have ol' Betsy bouncing around on the pavement if you got into what should have been a minor skirmish. Most, if not all, states that permit conceled carry also prohibit firearms in establishments that serve alcohol, either by the drink, or by the bottle. In many states, this could include your grocery store, drug store, or friendly convenience store. It gets awkward.
roger wrote:Actually, carrying is a pain in the neck, too. It automatically puts you on good behavior, because, it would be terribly embarassing to have ol' Betsy bouncing around on the pavement if you got into what should have been a minor skirmish. Most, if not all, states that permit conceled carry also prohibit firearms in establishments that serve alcohol, either by the drink, or by the bottle. In many states, this could include your grocery store, drug store, or friendly convenience store. It gets awkward.
Any law which makes it difficult, on a practial level, to carry a weapon,
is probably unconstitutional, since the Constitution
gives us the right to carry them.
Maybe so, Brandon.
Still, it would be a major improvement
if all states were as good as yours and mine.
Thomas wrote:McTag wrote:The founding fathers didn't envisage space travel either.
They were, however, familiar with your argument that entrusting guns to common citizens would mean blood in the streets. John Adams mentions it as characteristic of continental European states, and devotes a few paragraphs to arguing against it in his Defence of the Constitutions of the United States. (Plural, because he's defending the state constitutions as well as the federal constitution.) I'm too lazy at the moment to look up these paragraphs in Adams's 300 page book. But if the point is very important to you, I'll give it a, well, shot.
I need to amend this in the interest of balance: Adams also believed in tight legal regulation of the militia, because there would be blood in the streets without them: "To suppose arms in the hands of citizens, to be used at individual discretion, except in private self-defense, or by partial orders of towns, countries or districts of a state, is to demolish every constitution, and lay the laws prostrate, so that liberty can be enjoyed by no man; it is a dissolution of the government. The fundamental law of the militia is, that it be created, directed and commanded by the laws, and ever for the support of the laws"
Thomas wrote:Thomas wrote:McTag wrote:The founding fathers didn't envisage space travel either.
They were, however, familiar with your argument that entrusting guns to common citizens would mean blood in the streets. John Adams mentions it as characteristic of continental European states, and devotes a few paragraphs to arguing against it in his Defence of the Constitutions of the United States. (Plural, because he's defending the state constitutions as well as the federal constitution.) I'm too lazy at the moment to look up these paragraphs in Adams's 300 page book. But if the point is very important to you, I'll give it a, well, shot.
I need to amend this in the interest of balance: Adams also believed in tight legal regulation of the militia, because there would be blood in the streets without them: "To suppose arms in the hands of citizens, to be used at individual discretion, except in private self-defense, or by partial orders of towns, countries or districts of a state, is to demolish every constitution, and lay the laws prostrate, so that liberty can be enjoyed by no man; it is a dissolution of the government. The fundamental law of the militia is, that it be created, directed and commanded by the laws, and ever for the support of the laws"
Well that's some sentence written by Mr Adams.
If I may simplify it, it is saying that he believes the militia
(modern equivalent, the police or the National Guard) should be armed,
and individuals should not be armed, (except when necessary for self-defence).
Well said, sir.
McTag wrote:Thomas wrote:Thomas wrote:McTag wrote:The founding fathers didn't envisage space travel either.
They were, however, familiar with your argument that entrusting guns to common citizens would mean blood in the streets. John Adams mentions it as characteristic of continental European states, and devotes a few paragraphs to arguing against it in his Defence of the Constitutions of the United States. (Plural, because he's defending the state constitutions as well as the federal constitution.) I'm too lazy at the moment to look up these paragraphs in Adams's 300 page book. But if the point is very important to you, I'll give it a, well, shot.
I need to amend this in the interest of balance: Adams also believed in tight legal regulation of the militia, because there would be blood in the streets without them: "To suppose arms in the hands of citizens, to be used at individual discretion, except in private self-defense, or by partial orders of towns, countries or districts of a state, is to demolish every constitution, and lay the laws prostrate, so that liberty can be enjoyed by no man; it is a dissolution of the government. The fundamental law of the militia is, that it be created, directed and commanded by the laws, and ever for the support of the laws"
Well that's some sentence written by Mr Adams.
If I may simplify it, it is saying that he believes the militia
(modern equivalent, the police or the National Guard) should be armed,
and individuals should not be armed, (except when necessary for self-defence).
Well said, sir.
Well, that comment is worthy of several objections,
but let 's just focus on one, for now,
to wit:
the same as carrying health insurance is necessary ALL THE TIME,
because one never knows when he 'll get a heart attack,
or a stroke, or hit by a car,
so also one knows not when predators will fall upon him,
such that his life and other property depend upon
his being able to command and control such emergencies
( which is another way of saying: its better to HAVE a gun
and not NEED it, than to NEED a gun and not HAVE it )
David
Thomas wrote:Thomas wrote:McTag wrote:The founding fathers didn't envisage space travel either.
They were, however, familiar with your argument that entrusting guns to common citizens would mean blood in the streets. John Adams mentions it as characteristic of continental European states, and devotes a few paragraphs to arguing against it in his Defence of the Constitutions of the United States. (Plural, because he's defending the state constitutions as well as the federal constitution.) I'm too lazy at the moment to look up these paragraphs in Adams's 300 page book. But if the point is very important to you, I'll give it a, well, shot.
I need to amend this in the interest of balance: Adams also believed in tight legal regulation of the militia, because there would be blood in the streets without them: "To suppose arms in the hands of citizens, to be used at individual discretion, except in private self-defense, or by partial orders of towns, countries or districts of a state, is to demolish every constitution, and lay the laws prostrate, so that liberty can be enjoyed by no man; it is a dissolution of the government. The fundamental law of the militia is, that it be created, directed and commanded by the laws, and ever for the support of the laws"
Well that's some sentence written by Mr Adams.
If I may simplify it, it is saying that he believes the militia (modern equivalent, the police or the National Guard) should be armed, and individuals should not be armed, (except when necessary for self-defence).
Well said, sir.
OmSigDAVID wrote:McTag wrote:Thomas wrote:Thomas wrote:McTag wrote:The founding fathers didn't envisage space travel either.
They were, however, familiar with your argument that entrusting guns to common citizens would mean blood in the streets. John Adams mentions it as characteristic of continental European states, and devotes a few paragraphs to arguing against it in his Defence of the Constitutions of the United States. (Plural, because he's defending the state constitutions as well as the federal constitution.) I'm too lazy at the moment to look up these paragraphs in Adams's 300 page book. But if the point is very important to you, I'll give it a, well, shot.
I need to amend this in the interest of balance: Adams also believed in tight legal regulation of the militia, because there would be blood in the streets without them: "To suppose arms in the hands of citizens, to be used at individual discretion, except in private self-defense, or by partial orders of towns, countries or districts of a state, is to demolish every constitution, and lay the laws prostrate, so that liberty can be enjoyed by no man; it is a dissolution of the government. The fundamental law of the militia is, that it be created, directed and commanded by the laws, and ever for the support of the laws"
Well that's some sentence written by Mr Adams.
If I may simplify it, it is saying that he believes the militia
(modern equivalent, the police or the National Guard) should be armed,
and individuals should not be armed, (except when necessary for self-defence).
Well said, sir.
Well, that comment is worthy of several objections,
but let 's just focus on one, for now,
to wit:
the same as carrying health insurance is necessary ALL THE TIME,
because one never knows when he 'll get a heart attack,
or a stroke, or hit by a car,
so also one knows not when predators will fall upon him,
such that his life and other property depend upon
his being able to command and control such emergencies
( which is another way of saying: its better to HAVE a gun
and not NEED it, than to NEED a gun and not HAVE it )
David
Yeah but if the other guy does not have a gun (because he couldn't get one because there were no guns in circulation) then you won't need one either.
McTag wrote:Thomas wrote:Thomas wrote:McTag wrote:The founding fathers didn't envisage space travel either.
They were, however, familiar with your argument that entrusting guns to common citizens would mean blood in the streets. John Adams mentions it as characteristic of continental European states, and devotes a few paragraphs to arguing against it in his Defence of the Constitutions of the United States. (Plural, because he's defending the state constitutions as well as the federal constitution.) I'm too lazy at the moment to look up these paragraphs in Adams's 300 page book. But if the point is very important to you, I'll give it a, well, shot.
I need to amend this in the interest of balance: Adams also believed in tight legal regulation of the militia, because there would be blood in the streets without them: "To suppose arms in the hands of citizens, to be used at individual discretion, except in private self-defense, or by partial orders of towns, countries or districts of a state, is to demolish every constitution, and lay the laws prostrate, so that liberty can be enjoyed by no man; it is a dissolution of the government. The fundamental law of the militia is, that it be created, directed and commanded by the laws, and ever for the support of the laws"
Well that's some sentence written by Mr Adams.
If I may simplify it, it is saying that he believes the militia (modern equivalent, the police or the National Guard) should be armed, and individuals should not be armed, (except when necessary for self-defence).
Well said, sir.
Not quite. Neither the police nor the National Guard is the modern equivalent of the militia. And listing self defense as a valid reason for people to be armed is not an argument that they shouldn't be armed.
...Yeah but if the other guy does not have a gun (because he couldn't get one because there were no guns in circulation) then you won't need one either.
It's a different mindset required.
I've previously argued that the need for self-defence is being deliberately overplayed.
Well that's some sentence written by Mr Adams.
If I may simplify it, it is saying that he believes the militia (modern equivalent, the police or the National Guard) should be armed, and individuals should not be armed, (except when necessary for self-defence).
Well said, sir
OmSigDAVID wrote:McTag wrote:Thomas wrote:Thomas wrote:McTag wrote:The founding fathers didn't envisage space travel either.
They were, however, familiar with your argument that entrusting guns to common citizens would mean blood in the streets. John Adams mentions it as characteristic of continental European states, and devotes a few paragraphs to arguing against it in his Defence of the Constitutions of the United States. (Plural, because he's defending the state constitutions as well as the federal constitution.) I'm too lazy at the moment to look up these paragraphs in Adams's 300 page book. But if the point is very important to you, I'll give it a, well, shot.
I need to amend this in the interest of balance: Adams also believed in tight legal regulation of the militia, because there would be blood in the streets without them: "To suppose arms in the hands of citizens, to be used at individual discretion, except in private self-defense, or by partial orders of towns, countries or districts of a state, is to demolish every constitution, and lay the laws prostrate, so that liberty can be enjoyed by no man; it is a dissolution of the government. The fundamental law of the militia is, that it be created, directed and commanded by the laws, and ever for the support of the laws"
Well that's some sentence written by Mr Adams.
If I may simplify it, it is saying that he believes the militia
(modern equivalent, the police or the National Guard) should be armed,
and individuals should not be armed, (except when necessary for self-defence).
Well said, sir.
Well, that comment is worthy of several objections,
but let 's just focus on one, for now,
to wit:
the same as carrying health insurance is necessary ALL THE TIME,
because one never knows when he 'll get a heart attack,
or a stroke, or hit by a car,
so also one knows not when predators will fall upon him,
such that his life and other property depend upon
his being able to command and control such emergencies
( which is another way of saying: its better to HAVE a gun
and not NEED it, than to NEED a gun and not HAVE it )
David
Yeah but if the other guy does not have a gun
(because he couldn't get one because there were no guns in circulation)
then you won't need one either.
It's a different mindset required.
If I may simplify it, it is saying that he believes the militia
(modern equivalent, the police or the National Guard) should be armed,
and individuals should not be armed, (except when necessary for self-defence).