0
   

Guns and the Supreme Court

 
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Sat 29 Mar, 2008 07:54 pm
H2O_MAN wrote:
Thomas wrote:


Remember the ladies and gentlemen in various Muslim countries who burned Danish fags


Fag burning is so 1980s

This may cause emigration
of a chapter of The Pink Pistols to Denmark.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  0  
Reply Sat 29 Mar, 2008 08:47 pm
OmSigDAVID wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
McTag wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
Every freedom is messy and has some cost. Freedom of speech and assemby, for example, occasionally require the police to guard marchers or demonstrators for unpopular causes, which costs money. Once you accept the idea that everyone is entitled to personal liberty, then the right to defend one's person follows immediately, and the statistics regarding gun violence are interesting, but irrelevant.


You might be surprised to learn that I feel exactly the same as you do about self-defence.
But here, our policemen don't carry guns. Our burglars don't either. And so I don't feel I need one.
It's a whole different approach.

Actually, I don't own a gun, never have, and probably never will.
I'm talking in the abstract, but I do feel strongly about the principle.
If one knew for sure that one would never be confronted with violence,
then there would be no need to be armed, but one can't really know that.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to have a gun in one's house just in case
that terrible day ever comes. I don't want to hurt anyone, but if I or my
wife were threatened, and I had a gun, and the level of the threat put me
in fear of imminent harm, I would use it.

Point of information:
Is it more acceptable and more reasonable
for u or your wife to become the victims of predatory violence
out in the street, like the late Kitty Genovese
( such that u don 't need defensive guns there ) ?




David

By saying that it's reasonable to keep a gun in the house, I didn't mean that it's unreasonable to carry one. I do think that it's perfectly within someone's rights to do so, although, practically speaking, I understand that it takes a lot of effort to get a permit to carry a concealed weapon.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Mar, 2008 09:14 pm
Actually, carrying is a pain in the neck, too. It automatically puts you on good behavior, because, it would be terribly embarassing to have ol' Betsy bouncing around on the pavement if you got into what should have been a minor skirmish. Most, if not all, states that permit conceled carry also prohibit firearms in establishments that serve alcohol, either by the drink, or by the bottle. In many states, this could include your grocery store, drug store, or friendly convenience store. It gets awkward.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Mar, 2008 10:26 pm
roger wrote:
Actually, carrying is a pain in the neck, too. It automatically puts you on good behavior, because, it would be terribly embarassing to have ol' Betsy bouncing around on the pavement if you got into what should have been a minor skirmish. Most, if not all, states that permit conceled carry also prohibit firearms in establishments that serve alcohol, either by the drink, or by the bottle. In many states, this could include your grocery store, drug store, or friendly convenience store. It gets awkward.

I wonder whether
there are any statistics of gun fights breaking out
in bars, before the advent of gun control ?




David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Mar, 2008 10:43 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
OmSigDAVID wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
McTag wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
Every freedom is messy and has some cost. Freedom of speech and assemby, for example, occasionally require the police to guard marchers or demonstrators for unpopular causes, which costs money. Once you accept the idea that everyone is entitled to personal liberty, then the right to defend one's person follows immediately, and the statistics regarding gun violence are interesting, but irrelevant.


You might be surprised to learn that I feel exactly the same as you do about self-defence.
But here, our policemen don't carry guns. Our burglars don't either. And so I don't feel I need one.
It's a whole different approach.

Actually, I don't own a gun, never have, and probably never will.
I'm talking in the abstract, but I do feel strongly about the principle.
If one knew for sure that one would never be confronted with violence,
then there would be no need to be armed, but one can't really know that.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to have a gun in one's house just in case
that terrible day ever comes. I don't want to hurt anyone, but if I or my
wife were threatened, and I had a gun, and the level of the threat put me
in fear of imminent harm, I would use it.

Point of information:
Is it more acceptable and more reasonable
for u or your wife to become the victims of predatory violence
out in the street, like the late Kitty Genovese
( such that u don 't need defensive guns there ) ?




David

By saying that it's reasonable to keep a gun in the house,
I didn't mean that it's unreasonable to carry one.
I do think that it's perfectly within someone's rights to do so,
although, practically speaking,
I understand that it takes a lot of effort to get a permit to carry a concealed weapon.

To the extent that this is difficult,
government is acting criminally in violation of the Constitution
in that it is DISCRIMINATING
as to a citizen 's use of his inalienable constitutional rights,
and that discrimination can result in his death.

" UNITED STATES CODE TITLE 18 -
CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE PART I -
CRIMES CHAPTER 13 - CIVIL RIGHTS

ยง 242. Deprivation of rights under color of law

Whoever, under color of any law, statute,
ordinance, regulation, or custom,
willfully subjects any inhabitant of any State,
Territory, or District to the deprivation of any rights,
privileges, or immunities secured or protected
by the Constitution or laws of the United States,
. . .
shall be fined not more than $1,000
or imprisoned not more than one year, or both;
and if bodily injury results shall be fined
under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both;
and if death results shall be subject to imprisonment for
any term of years or for life. "


I advocate that a man who has proven
to be intolerably dangerous, by a history of violent criminal recidivism,
shud be isolated from polite society, in that he has declared war against them;
thus he has excluded himself from that society.




David
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  0  
Reply Sat 29 Mar, 2008 11:07 pm
roger wrote:
Actually, carrying is a pain in the neck, too. It automatically puts you on good behavior, because, it would be terribly embarassing to have ol' Betsy bouncing around on the pavement if you got into what should have been a minor skirmish. Most, if not all, states that permit conceled carry also prohibit firearms in establishments that serve alcohol, either by the drink, or by the bottle. In many states, this could include your grocery store, drug store, or friendly convenience store. It gets awkward.

Any law which makes it difficult, on a practial level, to carry a weapon, is probably unconstitutional, since the Constitution gives us the right to carry them.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Mar, 2008 11:11 pm
Maybe so, Brandon. Still, it would be a major improvement if all states were as good as yours and mine.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Mar, 2008 11:45 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
roger wrote:
Actually, carrying is a pain in the neck, too. It automatically puts you on good behavior, because, it would be terribly embarassing to have ol' Betsy bouncing around on the pavement if you got into what should have been a minor skirmish. Most, if not all, states that permit conceled carry also prohibit firearms in establishments that serve alcohol, either by the drink, or by the bottle. In many states, this could include your grocery store, drug store, or friendly convenience store. It gets awkward.

Any law which makes it difficult, on a practial level, to carry a weapon,
is probably unconstitutional, since the Constitution
gives us the right to carry them.

Interestingly, the USSC has held
that the rights of the First and Second Amendments
are older than the Constitution,
and that when created, the federal government found them in being.
US v. CRUIKSHANK 92 US 542 (1875)




David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Mar, 2008 11:48 pm
roger wrote:
Maybe so, Brandon.
Still, it would be a major improvement
if all states were as good as yours and mine.

Vermont has never had any gun laws;
Alaska repealed all of its gun laws a few years ago.

Accordingly, thay get MY vote, as the 2 most ideal states in America




David
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Mar, 2008 02:40 am
Thomas wrote:
Thomas wrote:
McTag wrote:
The founding fathers didn't envisage space travel either.

They were, however, familiar with your argument that entrusting guns to common citizens would mean blood in the streets. John Adams mentions it as characteristic of continental European states, and devotes a few paragraphs to arguing against it in his Defence of the Constitutions of the United States. (Plural, because he's defending the state constitutions as well as the federal constitution.) I'm too lazy at the moment to look up these paragraphs in Adams's 300 page book. But if the point is very important to you, I'll give it a, well, shot.

I need to amend this in the interest of balance: Adams also believed in tight legal regulation of the militia, because there would be blood in the streets without them: "To suppose arms in the hands of citizens, to be used at individual discretion, except in private self-defense, or by partial orders of towns, countries or districts of a state, is to demolish every constitution, and lay the laws prostrate, so that liberty can be enjoyed by no man; it is a dissolution of the government. The fundamental law of the militia is, that it be created, directed and commanded by the laws, and ever for the support of the laws"


Well that's some sentence written by Mr Adams.

If I may simplify it, it is saying that he believes the militia (modern equivalent, the police or the National Guard) should be armed, and individuals should not be armed, (except when necessary for self-defence).

Well said, sir.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Mar, 2008 04:38 am
McTag wrote:
Thomas wrote:
Thomas wrote:
McTag wrote:
The founding fathers didn't envisage space travel either.

They were, however, familiar with your argument that entrusting guns to common citizens would mean blood in the streets. John Adams mentions it as characteristic of continental European states, and devotes a few paragraphs to arguing against it in his Defence of the Constitutions of the United States. (Plural, because he's defending the state constitutions as well as the federal constitution.) I'm too lazy at the moment to look up these paragraphs in Adams's 300 page book. But if the point is very important to you, I'll give it a, well, shot.

I need to amend this in the interest of balance: Adams also believed in tight legal regulation of the militia, because there would be blood in the streets without them: "To suppose arms in the hands of citizens, to be used at individual discretion, except in private self-defense, or by partial orders of towns, countries or districts of a state, is to demolish every constitution, and lay the laws prostrate, so that liberty can be enjoyed by no man; it is a dissolution of the government. The fundamental law of the militia is, that it be created, directed and commanded by the laws, and ever for the support of the laws"


Well that's some sentence written by Mr Adams.

If I may simplify it, it is saying that he believes the militia
(modern equivalent, the police or the National Guard) should be armed,
and individuals should not be armed, (except when necessary for self-defence).

Well said, sir.

Well, that comment is worthy of several objections,
but let 's just focus on one, for now,
to wit:
the same as carrying health insurance is necessary ALL THE TIME,
because one never knows when he 'll get a heart attack,
or a stroke, or hit by a car,
so also one knows not when predators will fall upon him,
such that his life and other property depend upon
his being able to command and control such emergencies

( which is another way of saying: its better to HAVE a gun
and not NEED it, than to NEED a gun and not HAVE it )



David
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Mar, 2008 04:49 am
OmSigDAVID wrote:
McTag wrote:
Thomas wrote:
Thomas wrote:
McTag wrote:
The founding fathers didn't envisage space travel either.

They were, however, familiar with your argument that entrusting guns to common citizens would mean blood in the streets. John Adams mentions it as characteristic of continental European states, and devotes a few paragraphs to arguing against it in his Defence of the Constitutions of the United States. (Plural, because he's defending the state constitutions as well as the federal constitution.) I'm too lazy at the moment to look up these paragraphs in Adams's 300 page book. But if the point is very important to you, I'll give it a, well, shot.

I need to amend this in the interest of balance: Adams also believed in tight legal regulation of the militia, because there would be blood in the streets without them: "To suppose arms in the hands of citizens, to be used at individual discretion, except in private self-defense, or by partial orders of towns, countries or districts of a state, is to demolish every constitution, and lay the laws prostrate, so that liberty can be enjoyed by no man; it is a dissolution of the government. The fundamental law of the militia is, that it be created, directed and commanded by the laws, and ever for the support of the laws"


Well that's some sentence written by Mr Adams.

If I may simplify it, it is saying that he believes the militia
(modern equivalent, the police or the National Guard) should be armed,
and individuals should not be armed, (except when necessary for self-defence).

Well said, sir.

Well, that comment is worthy of several objections,
but let 's just focus on one, for now,
to wit:
the same as carrying health insurance is necessary ALL THE TIME,
because one never knows when he 'll get a heart attack,
or a stroke, or hit by a car,
so also one knows not when predators will fall upon him,
such that his life and other property depend upon
his being able to command and control such emergencies

( which is another way of saying: its better to HAVE a gun
and not NEED it, than to NEED a gun and not HAVE it )



David


Yeah but if the other guy does not have a gun (because he couldn't get one because there were no guns in circulation) then you won't need one either.
It's a different mindset required.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sun 30 Mar, 2008 04:49 am
McTag wrote:
Thomas wrote:
Thomas wrote:
McTag wrote:
The founding fathers didn't envisage space travel either.

They were, however, familiar with your argument that entrusting guns to common citizens would mean blood in the streets. John Adams mentions it as characteristic of continental European states, and devotes a few paragraphs to arguing against it in his Defence of the Constitutions of the United States. (Plural, because he's defending the state constitutions as well as the federal constitution.) I'm too lazy at the moment to look up these paragraphs in Adams's 300 page book. But if the point is very important to you, I'll give it a, well, shot.

I need to amend this in the interest of balance: Adams also believed in tight legal regulation of the militia, because there would be blood in the streets without them: "To suppose arms in the hands of citizens, to be used at individual discretion, except in private self-defense, or by partial orders of towns, countries or districts of a state, is to demolish every constitution, and lay the laws prostrate, so that liberty can be enjoyed by no man; it is a dissolution of the government. The fundamental law of the militia is, that it be created, directed and commanded by the laws, and ever for the support of the laws"


Well that's some sentence written by Mr Adams.

If I may simplify it, it is saying that he believes the militia (modern equivalent, the police or the National Guard) should be armed, and individuals should not be armed, (except when necessary for self-defence).

Well said, sir.


Not quite. Neither the police nor the National Guard is the modern equivalent of the militia. And listing self defense as a valid reason for people to be armed is not an argument that they shouldn't be armed.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sun 30 Mar, 2008 04:52 am
McTag wrote:
OmSigDAVID wrote:
McTag wrote:
Thomas wrote:
Thomas wrote:
McTag wrote:
The founding fathers didn't envisage space travel either.

They were, however, familiar with your argument that entrusting guns to common citizens would mean blood in the streets. John Adams mentions it as characteristic of continental European states, and devotes a few paragraphs to arguing against it in his Defence of the Constitutions of the United States. (Plural, because he's defending the state constitutions as well as the federal constitution.) I'm too lazy at the moment to look up these paragraphs in Adams's 300 page book. But if the point is very important to you, I'll give it a, well, shot.

I need to amend this in the interest of balance: Adams also believed in tight legal regulation of the militia, because there would be blood in the streets without them: "To suppose arms in the hands of citizens, to be used at individual discretion, except in private self-defense, or by partial orders of towns, countries or districts of a state, is to demolish every constitution, and lay the laws prostrate, so that liberty can be enjoyed by no man; it is a dissolution of the government. The fundamental law of the militia is, that it be created, directed and commanded by the laws, and ever for the support of the laws"


Well that's some sentence written by Mr Adams.

If I may simplify it, it is saying that he believes the militia
(modern equivalent, the police or the National Guard) should be armed,
and individuals should not be armed, (except when necessary for self-defence).

Well said, sir.

Well, that comment is worthy of several objections,
but let 's just focus on one, for now,
to wit:
the same as carrying health insurance is necessary ALL THE TIME,
because one never knows when he 'll get a heart attack,
or a stroke, or hit by a car,
so also one knows not when predators will fall upon him,
such that his life and other property depend upon
his being able to command and control such emergencies

( which is another way of saying: its better to HAVE a gun
and not NEED it, than to NEED a gun and not HAVE it )



David


Yeah but if the other guy does not have a gun (because he couldn't get one because there were no guns in circulation) then you won't need one either.


Not if the other guy was capable of killing me with his bare hands (or with a kitchen knife). In that case I still need the gun to defend myself.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Mar, 2008 04:53 am
oralloy wrote:
McTag wrote:
Thomas wrote:
Thomas wrote:
McTag wrote:
The founding fathers didn't envisage space travel either.

They were, however, familiar with your argument that entrusting guns to common citizens would mean blood in the streets. John Adams mentions it as characteristic of continental European states, and devotes a few paragraphs to arguing against it in his Defence of the Constitutions of the United States. (Plural, because he's defending the state constitutions as well as the federal constitution.) I'm too lazy at the moment to look up these paragraphs in Adams's 300 page book. But if the point is very important to you, I'll give it a, well, shot.

I need to amend this in the interest of balance: Adams also believed in tight legal regulation of the militia, because there would be blood in the streets without them: "To suppose arms in the hands of citizens, to be used at individual discretion, except in private self-defense, or by partial orders of towns, countries or districts of a state, is to demolish every constitution, and lay the laws prostrate, so that liberty can be enjoyed by no man; it is a dissolution of the government. The fundamental law of the militia is, that it be created, directed and commanded by the laws, and ever for the support of the laws"


Well that's some sentence written by Mr Adams.

If I may simplify it, it is saying that he believes the militia (modern equivalent, the police or the National Guard) should be armed, and individuals should not be armed, (except when necessary for self-defence).

Well said, sir.


Not quite. Neither the police nor the National Guard is the modern equivalent of the militia. And listing self defense as a valid reason for people to be armed is not an argument that they shouldn't be armed.


I'm not disagreeing with that, although I've previously argued that the need for self-defence is being deliberately overplayed.

If things had developed as Mr Adams wanted, we would have no private armouries like at Waco, and no military-type weapons being freely bought and traded.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  0  
Reply Sun 30 Mar, 2008 05:50 am
McTag wrote:
...Yeah but if the other guy does not have a gun (because he couldn't get one because there were no guns in circulation) then you won't need one either.
It's a different mindset required.

I don't think this is true. If a group of men break into my house armed with clubs and knives, I do need a gun. Furthermore, should my government someday become a dictatorship which ought to be overthrown, it would only be possible to do so if numerous citizens had guns so as to form an underground guerilla movement, which is just what our Declaration of Independence instructs us to do in this case. From memory and hopefully close to the wording there:

"...whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it and to institute new goverment..."

and later:

"...it is their right, it is their duty to throw of such goverment and to provide new guards for their future security...."

Your standard answer is to tell me that it modern times, it is impossible for the people to resist the might of a government, but, first of all, I'm not sure that is true if guerilla tactics are used, and secondly, it must be better for people to have guns and have some chance of overthrowing a tyranical government than to be rendered absolutely helpless and have no chance at all.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Sun 30 Mar, 2008 05:59 am
McTag wrote:


I've previously argued that the need for self-defence is being deliberately overplayed.



The need is real and the need is growing.
How do you overplay self defense ??

If your life is threatened, you do whatever it takes and use whatever tool is available to protect yourself.
A bat, chair, knife, gun a car ... use whatever it takes to survive.





As for military style weapons - looks have little to do with function.

Example:
A single semi-auto rifle is in both pictures. Only the stock and accessories have changed.
Most would not look twice at the rifle in the wooden stock. Most freak out when they see the same rifle in the black stock.

http://www.athenswater.com/images/ebrbuild.JPG

http://www.athenswater.com/images/SAGE-EBR-SCOUT.jpg

All of my military style weapons are semi-automatic and fire the same caliber popular hunting rifles fire.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Mar, 2008 08:01 am
McTag said...

Quote:
Well that's some sentence written by Mr Adams.

If I may simplify it, it is saying that he believes the militia (modern equivalent, the police or the National Guard) should be armed, and individuals should not be armed, (except when necessary for self-defence).

Well said, sir
.

Except that the police are NOT obligated to protect an individual citizen, according to at least two court cases, to which I have posted links.
So the average citizen has every right to defend themselves by carrying a gun.

Here in Ky where I live its a "shall issue" state, and I got my CCW 4 years ago.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Mar, 2008 10:35 am
McTag wrote:
OmSigDAVID wrote:
McTag wrote:
Thomas wrote:
Thomas wrote:
McTag wrote:
The founding fathers didn't envisage space travel either.

They were, however, familiar with your argument that entrusting guns to common citizens would mean blood in the streets. John Adams mentions it as characteristic of continental European states, and devotes a few paragraphs to arguing against it in his Defence of the Constitutions of the United States. (Plural, because he's defending the state constitutions as well as the federal constitution.) I'm too lazy at the moment to look up these paragraphs in Adams's 300 page book. But if the point is very important to you, I'll give it a, well, shot.

I need to amend this in the interest of balance: Adams also believed in tight legal regulation of the militia, because there would be blood in the streets without them: "To suppose arms in the hands of citizens, to be used at individual discretion, except in private self-defense, or by partial orders of towns, countries or districts of a state, is to demolish every constitution, and lay the laws prostrate, so that liberty can be enjoyed by no man; it is a dissolution of the government. The fundamental law of the militia is, that it be created, directed and commanded by the laws, and ever for the support of the laws"


Well that's some sentence written by Mr Adams.

If I may simplify it, it is saying that he believes the militia
(modern equivalent, the police or the National Guard) should be armed,
and individuals should not be armed, (except when necessary for self-defence).

Well said, sir.

Well, that comment is worthy of several objections,
but let 's just focus on one, for now,
to wit:
the same as carrying health insurance is necessary ALL THE TIME,
because one never knows when he 'll get a heart attack,
or a stroke, or hit by a car,
so also one knows not when predators will fall upon him,
such that his life and other property depend upon
his being able to command and control such emergencies

( which is another way of saying: its better to HAVE a gun
and not NEED it, than to NEED a gun and not HAVE it )



David


Yeah but if the other guy does not have a gun
(because he couldn't get one because there were no guns in circulation)
then you won't need one either.
It's a different mindset required.

That statement proceeds from defective reasoning
( or from reasoning whose premises rely upon incomplete factual information;
indeed, thay assume a state-of-being contrary to known fact ),
to wit:
for most of the centuries during which guns have been available,
thay have been handmade; this anteceded the advent of faster
and easier production with electric tools,
based upon engineering technology that is freely available
thru out the libraries of the world, and freely forthcoming from
such publishers as Palladin Press, which will send u (and HAS sent me) full information
on how to make an operational submachinegun or automatic rifle, in about a week.
AK47s are very easy to make.
( I 've heard that thay go for $12 in Moslem bazaars. )

It might be of some interest that years ago a team of criminals in prison,
shot their way out with a submachinegun thay thay made in the prison workshop,
one-part-at-a-time, with the guards around, and assembled in private.
Mr. McTag, what r the limits of what thay can make
with free access to the hardware stores of America ?

Let us assume, for the sake of argument,
that the criminals r too lazy to make their own submachineguns.
Is there a reason that the free market ( underground ) will not serve them
as it does as to availability of marijuana, PCP, or LSD, or etc. ?

In America, we have found prohibitions to be FUTILE
( e.g., against alcohol or marijuana ) because thay don 't work.

No one gives a damn WHAT government wants us to relinquish.
We know that the REAL Supreme Law of the Land
is the Law of Supply and Demand.
U can take THAT to the BANK !




David
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Mar, 2008 11:31 am
McTag wrote:
If I may simplify it, it is saying that he believes the militia
(modern equivalent, the police or the National Guard) should be armed,
and individuals should not be armed, (except when necessary for self-defence).


It should be noted here that your concept is rather too simple given the history of the United States, and of policing and the National Guard. One paragraph of Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution, which deals with the powers of Congress, reads:

[Congress have the power:] To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

Executing the laws of the Union is quite a different matter than the function of the police, and the significant occasions upon which the militia were called out to execute the laws of the union--such as the Whiskey Rebellion--lead to a good deal of public discontent. The same can be said of the use of the militia to suppress insurrection. Shays' Rebellion before the Constitution was promulgated saw a rebellion in western Massachusetts suppressed by the militia from eastern Massachusetts, and left a good deal of discontent. In the late 18th century, there were no regularly organized police forces in the nation, and police officials (usually the county sheriff or a town marshal) relied upon the deputized citizens to enforce local and state laws where a need was seen. After the Civil War, and the "Reconstruction" period which followed, the Posse Comitatus Act (1878) was passed, which prohibited the Federal government from using the armed forces and/or the militia in the role of police.

That leaves the militia in the role of repelling invasions. Excepting a few cases of the militia standing in defense of their homes, the record of the militia in "repelling invasion" (which actually can only refer to the War of 1812, the Creek War [1813] and the Civil War) is abysmal. The militia of New England performed fairly well in the Revolution, but it is noteworthy that the New Englanders had had more than a century of bush warfare, and sometimes organized warfare on the European model, with the French and their Indian clients--they were not typical of American militias. In almost all other cases, it is embarrassing how quickly the militia would run away. Washington constantly complained about being forced to rely upon the militia, whom he considered to be pre-eminently unreliable.

At Bladensburg in Maryland, as a small English army marched on Washington in 1814, about 6,000 or 7,000 militiamen (the English claimed 9,000--but they were clearly polishing their own laurels with that estimate) from Maryland and Virginia were marched out with a few hundred sailors from the regular Navy, and somewhat less than 200 Marines. The militia got a good look at the redcoats, and threw down their arms and ran without firing a shot. The Navy hung onto the militia's artillery, and in the words of one English officer, " . . . served the guns even after we had shot down their offices and were among them with the bayonet." The Marines fought steadily until the sun went down, and then marched away carrying all of their dead and wounded.

Earlier, in late 1812, when the United States first attempted in invade Canada, the New York militia largely refused to cross the Niagara River, saying that this was not a case of repelling an invasion, but of conducting one. Most of those who did cross the river promptly re-crossed the river when the English began to gather for a counterattack, pushing the wounded aside so they could get in the boats. American forces did not begin to campaign effectively in the Niagara peninsula until their forces were made up of regular troops and volunteers, and they stopped relying upon the militia. At New Orleans in 1815, Jackson's defense on the left bank of the Mississippi River (the east side) was made up of the Crescent City militia (inhabitants of New Orleans marched out to defend their city) spread out among the Kentucky and Tennessee volunteers, many of whom were veterans of the recently concluded Creek War. Sailors and Marines from the fleet served the artillery in Jackson's line. They cut down the redcoats like wheat in a field at harvest, including the commander of the English force. On the right (west) bank of the river, the Kentucky militia threw down their guns and ran away, without firing a shot.

In the Civil War, local militias who were sent out to confront invading Federal or Confederate armies were brushed aside contemptuously, when they didn't actually simply run away. The concept of using the militia to repel invasions is ludicrous, and has been since before the constitution was ratified.

Which leads us to the National Guard. The first time that a law was passed which sought to create an efficient and reliable "militia" (all previously laws rather laughably assumed that the militia would be efficient and reliable, and dealt with how they would be incorporated into the regular forces when on national service) was when the Militia Act of 1903 was passed--it is commonly known as the Dick Act. This was the first effective overhaul of the militia system, and created the Army National Guard, setting standards for training and equipment--and making a distinction between the National Guard and the "unorganized militia". This latter distinction was a nod to the provisions of the second amendment. The Rambo-style wannabe heroes we encounter here would be considered members of the unorganized militia.

Largely, no one with military experience and competence in our history has relied upon the militia for serious operations. At Hannah's Cowpens in 1781, Daniel Morgan actually planned for the known cowardice of the militia--he went around the night before and told them he just wanted them to give the redcoats " . . . two good fires, then you can skeeddadle." He placed his forces between two small rivers, so the militia could not run far, and could be rallied and reformed after they had run. The members of the Continental Line, no doubt unsurprised, were told to expect the militia to run after two volleys. Probably the only thing which surprised them was to see the militia hang around long enough to fire, re-load and fire again.

The Dick Act was the first time anyone attempted, diplomatically, to address the weaknesses and unreliability of the militia. It has largely been successful, and the Army National Guard, and the Air National Guard have proven to be a reliable support to the regular military on many occasions since 1903.

Beginning in 2006, the Shrub has gotten his Congressional supporters to hang riders on Defense appropriation bills to attempt to modify or nullify the provisions of the various bills which constitute what is known as "the Insurrection Act." There was never a single bill which constituted an insurrection act, and the term refers to the body of law, grouped around the 1878 Posse Comitatus Act, which deal with the powers of the government to use the armed forces in policing roles. The Shrub has been attempting to gain for the executive branch the power to use the military in a police role.
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