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Guns and the Supreme Court

 
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Mar, 2008 08:48 am
to Maporche:

"Exaggerated sensitiveness is an expression of the feeling of inferiority."
Alfred Adler
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Mar, 2008 08:54 am
Advocate wrote:
to Maporche:

"Exaggerated sensitiveness is an expression of the feeling of inferiority."
Alfred Adler


Ok..............thanks!?
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Mar, 2008 09:08 am
Gun control is hitting what you aim at - period.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Mar, 2008 03:03 pm
It looks as though the DC gun rules will go down. This will, I think, open the floodgates for a great deal of litigation on gun issues of all sorts.


U.S. Supreme Court seems poised to strike down D.C. handgun ban

By David G. Savage, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
10:48 AM PDT, March 18, 2008
WASHINGTON -- The Supreme Court justices, hearing a historic argument on the meaning of the 2nd Amendment, signaled they are likely to strike down a handgun ban in the District of Columbia and rule that homeowners have a right to keep a gun for self-defense.

But if the oral arguments are any guide, the outcome will not be unanimous. Several justices said they believed the 2nd Amendment was intended to protect the state's right to maintain a "well-regulated militia," not to give gun rights to individuals.

Justice Anthony M. Kennedy, who is the swing vote in close cases, said he believed the 2nd Amendment did more than bolster the state militia. "In my view, there is a general right to bear arms" that goes beyond serving in the militia, Kennedy said.

Most Americans believe the 2nd Amendment protects the right of law-abiding persons to "keep and bear arms." But the legal meaning of this provision remains in doubt. The high court has never invoked this right to strike down a gun law nor has it ruled that it protects a personal right to own a gun.

Justice Antonin Scalia, like Kennedy, described the 2nd Amendment as protecting individual guns. Justice Clarence Thomas is likely to join with them. And Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. and Justice Samuel A. Alito Jr. said they believed the city council in Washington, D.C., went too far by prohibiting homeowners from having handguns.

"Why is that a reasonable regulation?" Roberts asked the lawyer defending the city's law.

Walter Dellinger, arguing for the city, said the framers of the Constitution were concerned about protecting the right of the people to defend the state or the community. The 2nd Amendment creates "a right to participate in the common defense," he said.

The amendment says: "A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

Dellinger also argued that the phrase "bear arms" was a military term. He said the Washington law should be upheld because it allows homeowners to have a disassembled rifle or shotgun at home, even while it bans small handguns.

It was clear several justices agreed with this view.

Justice John Paul Stevens noted that Congress and all but two states had focused the "right to keep and bear arms" on the militia, not on personal self-defense. It was seen "as the right to keep and bear arms for the common defense," he said.

But the court's liberal bloc did not appear to have the votes to uphold the law.

There were three main questions before the court today. Does the 2nd Amendment protect individual rights? Is this right subject to "reasonable" restrictions by the government? And is Washington's law unconstitutional because it forbids the private possession of handguns?

A bare majority sounded ready to say "yes" to all three. Such a ruling may have a limited effect, however, since Washington's law is seen as the strictest in the nation.

[email protected]
0 Replies
 
Jonsey
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Mar, 2008 03:26 pm
and then the murder rate will go back up in DC, and we'll be right back where we started.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Mar, 2008 03:28 pm
Jonsey wrote:
and then the murder rate will go back up in DC, and we'll be right back where we started.


When has the crime rate in DC stopped rising?

Guns in the hands of lawful citizens will cause a decrease in crime. Wait and see.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Mar, 2008 03:38 pm
My understanding is that the murder is much higher in places where there is no, or minimal, gun control. Louisiana is an example.
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maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Mar, 2008 03:42 pm
Advocate wrote:
My understanding is that the murder is much higher in places where there is no, or minimal, gun control. Louisiana is an example.


Actually, it's much higher in DC, where there is maximum gun control.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Mar, 2008 03:44 pm
maporsche wrote:
Advocate wrote:
My understanding is that the murder is much higher in places where there is no, or minimal, gun control. Louisiana is an example.


Actually, it's much higher in DC, where there is maximum gun control.



May I see a link to something supporting this.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Mar, 2008 03:54 pm
Advocate wrote:
maporsche wrote:
Advocate wrote:
My understanding is that the murder is much higher in places where there is no, or minimal, gun control. Louisiana is an example.


Actually, it's much higher in DC, where there is maximum gun control.



May I see a link to something supporting this.


Sorry, I meant to compare big cities to big cities. It's rather inaccurate to compare DC (a large urban area) with rural areas.

Here is a chart showing the murder rates (and other crimes) by large city.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate

You can draw all of your conclusions from there.


But the overall LA murder rate is around 10/100,000, still much lower than DC.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Mar, 2008 05:30 pm
Complete transcript of today's arguments can be found at:

http://www.supremecourtus.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/07-290.pdf

Additional info at the NRA site:

http://www.nraila.org/heller/

Life member of the NRA here hoping all those who filed an amicus curiae brief against (listed near the end of the above link) get to eat their petitions Smile

Quote:
Fairfax, Va.-Today, the Supreme Court heard oral arguments in District of Columbia v. Heller, a case the Court has stated is "limited to the following question: Whether Washington, D.C.'s bans [on handguns, on having guns in operable condition in the home and on carrying guns within the home] violate the Second Amendment rights of individuals who are not affiliated with any state-regulated militia, but who wish to keep handguns and other firearms for private use in their homes."

The case came before the Supreme Court on appeal by the District of Columbia, after a panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit declared the city's gun bans unconstitutional. The panel's decision was upheld by the full Court of Appeals.

The Court of Appeals decision--consistent with the views of the Framers of the Bill of Rights, respected legal commentators of the 19th century, the Supreme Court's ruling in U.S. v. Cruikshank (1876), numerous court decisions of the 19th century, the Supreme Court's ruling in U.S. v. Miller (1939), the position of the U.S. Department of Justice, and the vast majority of Second Amendment scholars today-concluded that "the Second Amendment protects an individual right to keep and bear arms. That right existed prior to the formation of the new government under the Constitution and was premised on the private use of arms for activities such as hunting and self-defense, the latter being understood as resistance to either private lawlessness or the depredations of a tyrannical government (or a threat from abroad)."

In today's argument, the Justices aggressively questioned advocates for all sides, including Walter Dellinger for the District, Solicitor General Paul Clement for the Department of Justice, and Alan Gura for the plaintiffs challenging D.C.'s law.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Mar, 2008 06:55 pm
Re: Guns and the Supreme Court
au1929 wrote:
Guns and the Supreme Court

Published: November 21, 2007




By agreeing this week to rule on whether provisions of Washington D.C.'s stringent gun control law violate the Second Amendment to the Constitution, the Supreme Court has inserted itself into a controversy with large ramifications for public safety. The court's move sowed hope and fear among supporters of reasonable gun control, and it ratcheted up the suspense surrounding the court's current term.
The hope, which we share, is that the court will rise above the hard-right ideology of some justices to render a decision respectful of the Constitution's text and the violent consequences of denying government broad room to regulate guns. The fear is that it will not.

At issue is a 2-1 ruling last March by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit that found unconstitutional a law barring handguns in homes and requiring that shotguns and rifles be stored with trigger locks or disassembled. The ruling upheld a radical decision by a federal trial judge, who struck down the 31-year-old gun control law on spurious grounds that conform with the agenda of the anti-gun control lobby but cry out for rejection by the Supreme Court.

Much hinges on how the justices interpret the Second Amendment, which says: "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

Opponents of gun control sometimes claim a constitutional prohibition on any serious regulation of individual gun ownership. But a lot has changed since America's founding, when people kept muskets to be ready for militia service. What has not changed is the actual language of the Constitution. To get past the first limiting clauses of the Second Amendment to find an unalienable individual right to bear arms seems to require creative editing.




Beyond grappling with fairly esoteric arguments
about the Second Amendment,
the justices need to responsibly confront modern-day reality.

Your argument seeks to OVERTHROW the US Constitution,
and to replace it with subjective, transient opinions.

Your argument seeks to reject and repudiate the concept that ours
is a government of LAWS, and not of MEN.

Your argument says, in effect,
that like Plato 's committee of philospher kings,
the USSC justices shud just do whatever thay want,
as long as thay call it " responsible. "


Quote:
A decision that upends needed gun controls currently in place around the
country would imperil the lives of Americans.

The ones who can freely arm themselves in self defense




David
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Mar, 2008 06:57 pm
I see that the murder rate in DC is lower than four other cities. BTW, someone in DC can go about half a mile into VA (across the river) and buy lots of handguns. That keeps the murder rate in DC pretty high.

I was surprised at the pro-gun arguments. They seemed to say that one can be a little pregnant; i.e., DC can't ban all handguns, but can ban some. I don't see the constitution allowing such leeway in providing rights.

The DC lawyer made a good point regarding the background of A2. At the time the B of Rs was being drafted, the states were worried that this new national government could take away the guns from their treasured militias. This supports the argument that A2 provides a right to bear in the context of a militia, not in a personal context.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Mar, 2008 07:03 pm
Dave, you must be shocked by the arguments of the pro-gun lawyers. They appeared to limit their objections to the ban on handguns. Moreover, they said that A2 could countenance pretty extensive regulation, something that is very repugnant to you.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Mar, 2008 07:22 pm
Advocate wrote:
Dave, you must be shocked by the arguments of the pro-gun lawyers. They appeared to limit their objections to the ban on handguns. Moreover, they said that A2 could countenance pretty extensive regulation, something that is very repugnant to you.


The case that is before the SCOTUS IS essentially about the handgun ban. Legally they can only argue THAT case.

Do you have any idea what's going on Advocate?
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Mar, 2008 07:23 pm
Advocate wrote:
I see that the murder rate in DC is lower than four other cities. BTW, someone in DC can go about half a mile into VA (across the river) and buy lots of handguns. That keeps the murder rate in DC pretty high.

I was surprised at the pro-gun arguments. They seemed to say that one can be a little pregnant; i.e., DC can't ban all handguns, but can ban some. I don't see the constitution allowing such leeway in providing rights.

The DC lawyer made a good point regarding the background of A2. At the time the B of Rs was being drafted, the states were worried that this new national government could take away the guns from their treasured militias.

This supports the argument that A2 provides a right to bear
in the context of a militia, not in a personal context.

If that were TRUE,
referring to any state GOVERNMENT militia,
it 'd be in the context of repealing Art. I § 1O sub-§ 3,
against states keeping troops. History shows NO movement to do so.

Traditionally, the " militia " were simply an armed citizenry, as distinct from the regular army.
The militia were simply the fellows in the neighborhood,
like a volunteer fire dept., as distinct from the government militia of Article I § 8.

When George Mason and George Washington organized the Fairfax County Militia,
there ALREADY EXISTED the Colonial Militia of Virginia.
Thay did not have the permission of the King of England to organize that militia, hence
it was a " well regulated " militia, not a " selected militia. "
The " well regulated " PRIVATE militia
were brought into military conflict with the government " selected militia "




In studying the history and jurisprudential development of the right to keep and bear arms,
it should be borne in mind that when the US Constitution and Bill of Rights
were enacted, during the 17OOs, there were NO POLICE anywhere in the USA,
nor had police existed in Colonial America, nor in England.

The concept of a police force first BEGAN during the 18OOs
(both in America and in England). Accordingly, during the 17OOs,
if one were attacked by a violent criminal, a predatory animal, or madman,
it was as imperative as it was paradigmatic that he have the means to handle
the situation himself, and this was the world that the Founding Fathers knew
when they drew the social and political contract that is the US Constitution.




David
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Mar, 2008 07:26 pm
maporsche wrote:
Advocate wrote:
Dave, you must be shocked by the arguments of the pro-gun lawyers. They appeared to limit their objections to the ban on handguns. Moreover, they said that A2 could countenance pretty extensive regulation, something that is very repugnant to you.


The case that is before the SCOTUS IS essentially about the handgun ban. Legally they can only argue THAT case.

Do you have any idea what's going on Advocate?



Your ignorance is quite profound. The case is about the legality of the law, which includes direction on the storage of rifles. Moreover, the arguments covered this quite a bit.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Mar, 2008 07:28 pm
Advocate wrote:
maporsche wrote:
Advocate wrote:
Dave, you must be shocked by the arguments of the pro-gun lawyers. They appeared to limit their objections to the ban on handguns. Moreover, they said that A2 could countenance pretty extensive regulation, something that is very repugnant to you.


The case that is before the SCOTUS IS essentially about the handgun ban. Legally they can only argue THAT case.

Do you have any idea what's going on Advocate?



Your ignorance is quite profound. The case is about the legality of the law, which includes direction on the storage of rifles. Moreover, the arguments covered this quite a bit.



MY ignorance........... Shocked Very Happy Laughing Laughing Shocked Laughing Very Happy
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Mar, 2008 07:31 pm
Advocate wrote:
Dave, you must be shocked by the arguments of the pro-gun lawyers.
They appeared to limit their objections to the ban on handguns.
Moreover, they said that A2 could countenance pretty extensive regulation,
something that is very repugnant to you.

Yes.
Saddened, a little, not shocked. I kind of anticipated it.
Apparently, the strategy was to appear " reasonable "
and to enlarge the victory for freedom later.
Thay are looking for a basic victory
to be followed by incremental improvements and expansion of freedom.

My own nature is to be more forthright.
That does not mean that I 'd be more likely to succeed.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Mar, 2008 07:35 pm
Dave, you previously argued, as I recall, that there is no room in A2 for the state and local governments to impose regulations regarding the right to bear. Have you changed your mind?

The private lawyers made no bones about there being room for somewhat extensive regulation. For instance, one said that plastic handguns could be barred.
0 Replies
 
 

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