Bad Water in the Sticks - Best Bang for the Buck

ndwater wrote:

The info that those three last grains can still be felt is pretty important; it means that perhaps we don't hate soft water, just our almost-soft kind. It gives me hope that replacing the softener might make a difference.

No, you should feel "slimier" with 0 gpg soft water than with 3 gpg hard water.

You don't need or want a whole house RO. They require a large tank, a pump and pressure tank and then the RO water's CO2 content will be corrosive to all metals in the plumbing system and fixtures. And the RO water storage tan will have to be sanitized and cleaned every so often and the water can become contaminated requiring disinfection equipment before you use the water.

ndwater wrote:

I am having to lock horns with the plumber... he keeps saying that "no one needs more than 30k" and "folks around here install only that, with bigger families than yours". He not only is a good guy, but also the sole plumber in town; I will have to thread carefully on this one. As they say, as a DIY plumber, I am a decent network engineer.

Working with electronics or electricity is much harder than a water line. I say that based on my working as an electronics troubleshooter for GE, a lineman for an electric utility company and having done a lot of water line plumbing over the last 20+ years installing water treatment equipment. I've also rebuilt a couple computers over the years.

To help yourself and the plumber, EDIT: MODERATOR: DO NOT POST YOUR LINKS HERE

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that slimy feeling...
... or why can't we rinse off all the soap? click here

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Gary If you want to advertise your business You should offer payment to the sites owners.

By all means carry on with free advice.

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The questions youve asked need to be answered with some more data, like PH and Specific Conductance .
The Sodium level of 44% I dont believe unless you are in a brine environment , and the Sulfates though high enough to be an emetic, arent in equilibrium with the Na. If youre on a public water supply, you should get their annualized "Consumer Confidence REport" and get some help from a chemist who doesnt have any dealings with the water industry.

You could have a high Alum or anhydrite deposit but the sodium number , as reported is just plain whacky.

You could be plating out pure sodium carbonate on your fixtures , in that case youve got a source deposit of nahcolite or trona. These are deposits that I feel could easily be intersected by the towns wells and , while their treatment gets most of it, theres a superabundance of the stuff in your water , (along with other salts). My guess is that underground is either an old salt lake deposit, or a thermal spring system.

If I were you , Id get a sample of the "crust" around your faucets and take about a thumbnail of it to a university with a chemistry or geology department that has an Xray diffraction setup. They can tell by xraying the crystals , what youve got.Theyll probably charge about 50 bucks and tell you whats in the water from its residue.

Until then youre just guessing.

My guess is theTrona source, , but their were hot springs near the gold fields of the Dakotas.

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Thanks for the posts, it is very valuable information, and I am learning a lot. Did not know there was this big world of water out there - and I thought routers and switches were vast.

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The questions youve asked need to be answered with some more data, like PH and Specific Conductance .

I was able to get the water reports from the city. THe PH here is 7.09. There is a field in the report called conductivity (not conductance). It reads 1730 umhos/cm.

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the sodium number , as reported is just plain whacky.

I am glad you said that, 44% did not make sense to me either (but then I am an ignoramus). I found another field for Sodium in the reports, this time it says 204 mg/L. Hope it makes more sense than 44%.

At the end of the city report, they focus sodium, sulfate and manganese. with special comments about their high amounts. Those would be

Sodium - 204 mg/l
Sulfate as (So4) - 492 mg/L
Manganese - 1.15 mg/L

I am assuming the softener can handle these three bad guys. I hope..

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My guess is that underground is either an old salt lake

The water formations (aquifers and such) in this area seem to be from glacier melt, sedimented - not that I know what that means.

Great link about the "why" of sliminess of the water. It would be funny if all we needed was to swap to synthetic soap. I think we are going for the 0 gpg softener, assuming it also cleans the three beasts above.

ND-Water

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That makes more sense, in a salt deposit youd have at least a 2:1 ratio of anions to major cations. You are plating out a mix of anhydrite and trona, and its quite common in past alkali areas.

The pH looks good but I did a quick Langolier index and your water is in a depositional environment.

Manganes is too high from a health standard and the water filters should handle that since its probably in a particulate form. Gary suggested a particulate filter and now I agree with him, These remind me (Im a scientist not a water treatment tech) of a huge Tampon in a glass holder.

Manganese at those ppm levels is of concern. Manganese has negative aspects for mental development in young kids, and its usually a number they should try to keep around 0.3 ppm or lower.

You can get a better water treatment analyses from a good national water lab like Severn Trent or Test America. These guys have scientists and thats their entire business to advise people of what to do based upon matching their water chemistry. ANd when they test water, they will take a smple just after turning on the faucet to see whats a residue in the pipes, and then theyll sample at maybe 1/2 hour later when the water is sure to be whats being delivered to you from the "cities pipes" The raw water, at the well, is available to you under Safe Drinking WAter Law.(Unless like the whacky laws in California where such data is considered priveleged)

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ndwater wrote:

At the end of the city report, they focus sodium, sulfate and manganese. with special comments about their high amounts. Those would be

Sodium - 204 mg/l
Sulfate as (So4) - 492 mg/L
Manganese - 1.15 mg/L

I am assuming the softener can handle these three bad guys. I hope..

A softener will not reduce or remove the sodium or sulfate but may remove or at least reduce the manganese.

Softening will increase the sodium content.

To remove/reduce the sulfate you would use an anion resin 'filter'; a softener actually that regenerates with the chloride part of sodium or potassium chloride.

Then an RO or a distiller to remove the sodium. Removal of the manganese is required for the use of RO.

Or there is nanofiltration, that would handle the sodium and sulfates but may require pretreatment for the manganese.

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Thanks again for the big hand. The idea of using a lab is good, but may not be feasible to the sticks-challenged. Someone gracefully posted a link where there were some labs recommended, but none close to us. UND, the state school, is in Grand Forks, some 350 miles out. I wish I could, though, and we might, next time we go to the big city.

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To remove/reduce the sulfate you would use an anion resin 'filter'; a softener actually that regenerates with the chloride part of sodium or potassium chloride.

Understood, but I am not sure how we would go about that. What would be the commercial incarnation of that device ? Do we buy a special softener, or some kind of filter ?

Thanks,

ND-Water

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ndwater wrote:

The idea of using a lab is good, but may not be feasible to the sticks-challenged. Someone gracefully posted a link where there were some labs recommended, but none close to us. UND, the state school, is in Grand Forks, some 350 miles out. I wish I could, though, and we might, next time we go to the big city.

click here for NDDH lab info

It seems your state gov is providing for your water quality testing needs.

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Just mail the sample to the lab ands stop whining

I'm sure you are not any more isolated than I am.

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weve sampled in the remotest areas of Argentina and Chile last month and had all my testing done in Pittsburgh Pa. Beleive it or not, the services like UPS, Fedex, USPost Office will take your sample away from you and deliver it to the lab that you choose. (The lab will send you a sampling kist and a throwaway cooler and instructions. To NOT sample your water to get a sense of the exact treatment you need is kinda like buying clothes for an unborn baby .

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Believe it or not, the services like UPS, Fedex, USPost Office will take your sample away from you and deliver it to the lab that you choose.

Cool, I had no idea it could be done like that. Thanks to justalurker too, for the local link, and to the troll, too, for the good bit of info.

ND-Water

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ndwater wrote:

and to the troll, too, for the good bit of info.

ND-Water

Dont you go talking about Farmerman like that!

:wink:

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ND-Water... you have 'city' water. It has already been tested by a state certified lab under state and federal law.

You have the report and it has been discussed as to the cause of your complaints about your water quality and what equipment and change of thinking you need to solve the problems.

IMO, you don't need to spend money and the additional effort for more testing.

The anion resin filter.... as I said, it is a softener with anion resin in it instead of cation resin. Cation resin is negative charged and anion is positive charged; so they remove the opposite charged ions in the water stream run through them but... cation resin is made in the sodium form and anion resin in the chloride form.

Softeners or this anion resin filter can regenerate with softener salt or potassium chloride but, there are no potassium form cation resins, so you must use more of it than sodium chloride, and anion resin (for chloride and sulfate removal) only use the chlorides part; not the sodium or potassium part.

Using an anion resin 'filter' there is no sense in spending the premium price for potassium chloride when only the chlorides part is going to be used.

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Gary Slusser wrote:

To help yourself and the plumber, EDIT: MODERATOR: DO NOT POST YOUR LINKS HERE

Thank you, moderators for your professional outlook and adherence to your rules.

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Oops. There was a posting that was deleted and put inot a 'restricted' area for some reason...missed it. Must have been a good one. Be nice guys!

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I dont agree with GAry, if you dont have a full disclosure Consumer Confidence REport and you have high levels of Mn and other ions, Its getting into your line after the distribution main. Ive seen many many problems occur where the public water lines had been leaking and the water one recieved at a building was much different because of old line leaks, or where old ductile iron pipe was joined to copper or plastic. Your problem may be covered by maintenance ordinance of the water authority. Or, your problems may be plumbing and not treatment. This can only be seen by comparing analyses and looking at sediment contained in your water.

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farmerman,

I agree with you. There are so many municipal applications where reports give certian amounts (say Cl) in the water but yet nothing is recorded at the location.

Except in very new locations, development areas, most public water systems are on older, outdated lines. These old lines can cotribute to poor water quality. So depending on reports of water tested at the plant, which are often quite different from those test results in the home, you may be that proverbial ostrich.

Ever look at old piping that is being repaired or replaced? Shocking to think that is channelling water coming into our homes.

Thanks for the input.
Andy Christensen, CWS-II

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Farmer, here's what he said and I replied to:
At the end of the city report, they focus sodium, sulfate and manganese. with special comments about their high amounts. Those would be

He has city water and the report would be their CCR. The analysis would have been done by a state certified lab. AS we all should know, all the data is based on water before treatment except the Lead and Copper for their Lead and Copper Rules compliance requirements and those data are derived from sample drawn at the customer location only.

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This is a very dry topic.

Just wanted to say. You're all putting me to sleep.

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Bad Water in the Sticks - Best Bang for the Buck

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