Bad Water in the Sticks - Best Bang for the Buck

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Hello,

Since this post did not receive a reply, I decided to try again. Thanks for the experts for any info a lay man can use to fix his problem.

ND-water

Sorry for the lack of response.

First of all, the item you referred to is NOT a "softener" and there is much discussion over ethics in advertising in calling something it is not.

Secondly, the feeling that you have soap on your skin after showering is a misunderstanding. The soap is off and natural oils remain. It is odd that people who hate that feeling get rid of their softener, shower in hard water and THEN apply expensive oils, moisturizers and ointments to make their skin feel....well the exact same way softer water makes it feel.

But now the pores are clogged with chemical applications and the skin actually labors to breath. I am always confused by these notions.

There is a simple test you can do to determine if soap in actually on your skin as you claim.

I think using the term "burn" around $2000 is a just an expression. Unfortunately, many people actually do just that and regret it through poor choices and lack of research and/or understanding.

Your water is extremely hard at 34 gpg. Only a softener can remedy that issue at a reasonable cost. Your Manganese is also very high, treatment can be likewise.

If your sodium is really that high, then blaming it on a softener for salty taste may not be right. It can alter how well a softener works. Are you in FL or near the coast somewhere. You may need to use a membrane technology to correct those issues.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

Andy,

Thanks for the reply, I appreciate you taking the time.


Ooops. Hope I did not break a rule. The folks around here call it that way, but that darn thing is so old (and so are most of the folks around here) that I am not surprised it cannot actually be called a softener.

I agree with what you are saying about "burn $2,000" being used literally. That is what we are trying to avoid going to this forum in addition of researching in manufacturer's web sites. Opinion here will always be without much of an agenda, whereas a manufacturer's will usually be not, I fear.




I am at the bottom of the ocean, if you go back 50 million years or so. That would be rural North Dakota. The local water here is well-based, something I did not mention before - not sure if it matters.

So, you think the manganese and sodium are high. When I read the 44% for the sodium, I thought it was a typo, called the good folks at the local water office to verify. It is accurate. All faucets in the house that run hard water are covered in white residue, and the plumber says it is the sodium. The 34 of hardness surely do not help either.

Do you think I should retire the Speed Queen and use the budget to get a real softener, plus a point of entry filter ? Or should I keep it, and get a better filter with the money saved ? Can you suggest some brands or models ?

Thanks,

ND-Water

Re: Bad Water in the Sticks - Best Bang for the Buck
Andy, instead of being sorry there were no replies, you should show up more frequently and sooner than every few days...

I haven't replied because he has a softener that appears to be working very well and... they hate soft water although they really need a softener as you say.

But since I'm here (now) I'll say that they don't need to buy anything else and especially anything from the link provided! He shouldn't want to spend $2k either and does have to.

Also, unless he wants to become a DIYer which he really should want to do, he's tied to a high priced and distant dealer or what the local plumber "feels comfortable with installing and servicing". Sounds to me he should be buying from the local plumber - but the plumber may not propose anything but a softener (either).

I will say that a "30k" for that amount of hardness and a family of six was it... it's way too small, and may be a time clock day timer instead of a metered/demand regenerated model that would probably save a lot of salt. And water.

ndwater,

I was referring to the link that you sent as for NOT being a softener. No worries on breaking forum rules or being anti-social.... I didn't infer that from you.

I'm not really sure how to interpret "44%" exactly, but I assume it is very high. Salt based water treatment systems that back wash with source water can work very poorly with extremely high sodium.

Friends in Florida use a membrane-based system to treat water to remove sodium. It is more complicated and more expensive.

The spots you have left on your faucets, etc., do the wipe of with a moist towel or do you need to scrape them off? If they wipe off easily, then they are most like sodium- and not calcium-based

Due to local peculuraities of your local water, sometimes the best advice is local success stories. Contact experienced and possibly certified water professionals both for treatment and maintenance.

www.wqa.org
This can be one step in that direction.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

Andy, Gary,

Thanks for the valuable input. I tried the wqa web site to try to locate some local stories, but my zip code yielded nothing, and even the entire state of North Dakota is not there. Oh well, it is a beautiful state, but not very populated.

The fixture spots need to be scraped off, and after a while, not even that will work. From Andy's analysis, I gather those would be calcium deposits.

Gary, the plumber here says the softener is doing the job, in spite of its age. He measured and liked the numbers. You are correct, it is a time clock regeneration system.

Our source of unhappiness is that we used to live in places where people drink straight from the faucet (and the shower water was not slimy). I realize those places did not have 34 of hardness and the high Sodium and Manganese we have here, but in my ignorance I cannot separate what is a "tough noogies" situation, where nothing can be done, to a scenario where a judicious amount of money can fix our water.

Long story short, from your posts it seems that we should keep the softener until it reaches decrepitude, and work with the water after it leaves. I guess the fulcrum is, is there a filter that will get rid of all the salt that had to go into the water to make it soft ? Or, to go in a different direction, can we get a filter that cleans the water while it is still hard water ?

I hope I made sense. We want to filter the hard water too, but will settle for smaller solution if that turns out to be the only possible way.

Thanks again,

ND-Water

ND, Andy is doing his best to keep you tied to a local dealer, preferably a WQA Certified type but local in any event rather than an online dealer such as myself. He's a hyped up Kinetico salesman selling very high priced nonelectric alternating twin tank softeners. In his opinion all other types and brands of softeners are inferior. Same for an RO.


They are caused by hardness scale, high TDS, chlorides and sulfates. A water softener removes the hardness but not the rest of them but.. your spots will be substantially less to none with a softener that is correctly sized and operating correctly. The unit at the link you had will not remove any more than a softener will and possibly won't prevent the hardness scale formation.

BTW, I'm 'testing' a small one (3-4 gpm) for my motor home. A no brand name, not the same brand as that link. I've had it about 2 months now and... the jury is still out but it does something to make the water ... a... act or feel? somewhat like softened water. I wouldn't suggest that people buy them just yet. Plus they are extremely expensive for the small volume of 'resin' in them.


IMO... you need to change the negative thinking about softened water. Change slimy'n slick to soft and smooth with no skin creams, lotions or creams needed. Or not and live with the drudgery of hard and/or slimy water OR, spend a small fortune for nanofiltration like the GE Homespring etc. BUT... they won't sell it to just any dealer, they require 'trained' dealers and an annual and probably expensive check up to make sure it is still working "properly". You don't have a dealer locally, so we're back at changing your perception of softened water; or not.


If I had my way, right now you would buy a new correctly sized for the family size and peak demand water use metered/demand initiated softener with a Clack WS-1 control valve that you installed yourself in about 3 hours some Saturday afternoon.

Actually you'd want to get rid of sodium, not salt. And all that salt you put in the brine tank and watch disappear, it DOES NOT get into your water! We don't use teh chlorides part of the salt, they go right out to drain. Ion exchange is 2 sodium (or potassium) ions for each positive ion removed from the water; calcium, magnesium, ferrous iron, manganese, lead, copper etc...

But let's look at how much sodium ion exchange softening adds. It is 7.85 mg/l per grain per gallon (gpg). A liter is roughly a quart. So, 34gpg hardness * 7.85=266.9 mg of sodium.

Now I drank an 8 oz glass of Heart Healthy Low Sodium V8 juice for breakfast and the label says 140 mg of sodium per 8 oz glass. How many 8 oz glasses are in a quart?

The Original V8 has like 560 mg/8oz glass. How about skim milk, 530 mg/ glass. A slice of white bread usually has 120-160 mg. A pickle like 1500 mg.

And how much of your softened water do you actually ingest?

If you want 0 mg, buy an RO or distiller to treat your softened drinking/cooking water; there is no other type of 'filter' to remove sodium.

I'm no water expert, but I've watched the action on these threads because it can be entertaining.

Some opinions will always have an agenda, even here.

Gary, thanks for the extended reply. It clarified a little of my extensive ignorance.

Got your point about the "Cl" half of the "NaCl" in the brine tank never making it to the water. I also see what you mean about what is left of sodium in the soft water not being too much, even with the brutal 34gpg we have here.

After I read this I talked to our plumber, and he told me that he measured 3 gpg on our softened water. He had said previously that it is OK, but since we are so unhappy with the water, he suggested replacing our ancient softener with one that gets 0 gpg and regenerates by demand. Question - can one really tell 0 gpg from 3 gpg ? Could the 3 grains be what is bugging us?

He also suggested a sediment filter before the softener, and an RO for our kitchen. Now he seems a honest dude, but I am not sure of his skills in water treatment, if you catch the drift.

From what I read , it seems that an RO in the kitchen is the way to go. But I do not even know what kind of sediment a "sediment filter" filters.. Can you or someone tell if the Manganese, Sulfate and Sodium we got here, which seem high, will decrease with the sediment filter, or should we try something else.

Thanks for your help,


ND-Water

A sediment filter removes 'dirt' from water. Unless the water is visibly dirty, there's little sense in installing a prefilter unless the control valve will gag on any invisible dirt build up; like the big box brands or Kinetico in many cases.

On the other side is the fact that a prefilter reduces pressure and gpm to the softener which prevents good cleaning of the resin which eventually causes it to fail.

Also, the disposable cartridge type filters were never meant to be used for POE (whole house) water treatment, so you usually end up replacing cartridges quite frequently until you get tired of it, which is in a couple months, and then the softener suffers more.

The most important component part of a softener is the control valve. Its quality dictates how long the unit operates service free. What control valve make and model is the plumber going to use? And if he doesn't know, you shouldn't buy a softener from him. Sad to say... most plumbers do not know or do water treatment without totally relying on the clerks at the plumbing supply house they buy the equipment from.

Yes most people can feel the difference between 3 gpg hard water and their softened water.

ndwater,

I recommend a pre-filter on all softeners. And if you have to change them often, then ask yourself why is the filters look so disgusting and aren't you glad they are preventing those no-longer invisible pareticles from going through the softener into your household. I don't buy the philosophy that if simply you don't 'see' it, it should be treated.

Mr. Slusser's says:
"Andy, instead of being sorry there were no replies, you should show up more frequently and sooner than every few days..."

Sorry, not to have responded earlier. I am in the water treatment business and we are extremely busy this time of year. I do average of four home visits per day (cover a range of 175 miles) and the paperwork sometimes prevents me from lounging around in my underwear surfing on the net. I neither feel the need to let these forum total absorb my day nor spend time belittling others.

Mr. Slusser's says:
"ND, Andy is doing his best to keep you tied to a local dealer, preferably a WQA Certified type but local in any event rather than an online dealer such as myself. He's a hyped up Kinetico salesman selling very high priced nonelectric alternating twin tank softeners. In his opinion all other types and brands of softeners are inferior. Same for an RO."

I'm sorry, I hadn't relized that I was pushing a particular product (name dropping) toward you as stated above; I'll leave that to someone else in his hopes that he can persuade you to buy directly from him.

It seems I am being accused of something I am not doing. But let me make it clear, I have not recommended any particular brand of product, discouraged from seeking assistance from any source or tried to create ill feelings with other members of the forum.

I was just responding to your inquiries.

I hope you can find a professional person to work with

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

I like the idea of a pre filter as long as it has a clear housing and is set up for quick and easy filter changes.
This is a great way to protect your H2O investment.


_________________
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Depending on water conditions, a pleated filter (surface filter) may serve better than many depth filters. Some are reusable. A clear housing can be better monitored. Flow rates need to be considered and there are filters than can handle any flow rate needed for residential use.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

Thanks, everyone. I see a plan hatching, and it is thanks to your ideas.

The info that those three last grains can still be felt is pretty important; it means that perhaps we don't hate soft water, just our almost-soft kind. It gives me hope that replacing the softener might make a difference.

H2O, do you live in the greater Atlanta ? I used to be in Sandy Springs, then Paulding County. People would drink from the faucets there, and water softeners were a blurry non-popular concept, at least in my humble circle. Good days.

Following the water flow ...: So we get a sediment filter, then a softener that can get from 34 to 0 grains, instead of the 3 grains my current box hands out as soft.
After the softener, we get a RO point-of-use for the kitchen water. I am wondering if there is something that is not ridiculously expensive that we can get for the shower as well - unless the reduction from 3 to zero grains will do the trick.

I am having to lock horns with the plumber... he keeps saying that "no one needs more than 30k" and "folks around here install only that, with bigger families than yours". He not only is a good guy, but also the sole plumber in town; I will have to thread carefully on this one. As they say, as a DIY plumber, I am a decent network engineer..

ND-Water

Whole House RO filter - would it work ?
I wanted to ask the experts about a whole house RO filter after the softener.

It would be like this:

city water -> sediment filter -> softener -> whole house RO

So only soft water would get filtered.

Would this work well ? I saw some ads, but we all know about their commitment to the truth. What happens to the pressure ? If we have to have a tank for the RO filtered water in order to still have pressure and a reserve, wouldn't - in a twist of irony - that water run a big risk of getting infected ? Then, we would need to filter *that* water. I feel like I am going meta, but obviously better minds have thought of the problem. How does one go about it ?

ND-Water

Why?

Softeners I sell backwash any invisible dirt build up out of the resin bed during regeneration. And the resin lasts 10-20 years on residential well water or city water. And they don't suffer from a filter that hasn't been replaced when it should have been two months ago. That kills resin fairly quickly as you know.


Changing a filter by its looks or disgust factor is subjective and simply wrong but... you really think dirt goes through the softener! LOL

Resin is a very good 'filter', and you know it.


Yeah yeah, I've sold 9 this month (it's the 9th) and talked to each before they purchased; and there were 3 calls without purchasing (yet). Folks, Andy's sad story is like the daily log of a door to door salesman spending minimal time with each prospective customer while going through a 'free water test' soft water "demo 'Sign Here' contract based sales spiel. And if they don't buy, they rush off to the next appointment....

_________________
Gary Slusser
The internet water softener and well pump goto guy since Jan 1997.

Tin Man was a great movie.

dadpad,
Yea that was a classic.

ndwater,
There are very few cases where a whole-house RO would be necessary. The rate of production (permeate water) and the rate of drained water (concentrate) rarely justifies the cost and space required to maintain such a system. There are some case, however, whereby a WHRO could benefit the users.

With a whole house RO you would need a rather large retention (holding tank) as water production would be too slow to allow adequate supply to your home. Furthermore, RO water may be too aggressive to plumbing and fixtures causing them to corrode. All-in-all, not the best of solutions.

Having an efficient, properly set softener and an RO for your drinking water is normally all that is needed. Getting your water down to 0 gpg is not difficult. Most ROs will work very well at 0 gpg and will last for sometime before membranes will need to be replaced. Some ROs are much better than others.

I hope this can help you a bit.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

ndwater,

I grew up in the city on city water. I have some friends that live in the country on well water and their water always felt "slimey". I thought this is what well water is like. The fact of the matter is.... when a water softener is working correctly, the water is going to feel "slimey" for lack of a better term, to us who are used to hard water. It feels like you never get the soap off. When I bought my house in the country, the water felt this way and I erroneously thought my softener wasn't working. This is how I found this forum.

Bottom line..........soft water feels "slimey". You get used to it after a while. Your skin feels softer and you use a lot less soap in your everyday tasks.

Just wanted to clarify. If you think that getting a new softener is going to get rid of that slimey feeling, you are wrong.