A Person Without Heatlh Insurance Gets Sick

I guess you can look at it like that- or you can look at it from the standpoint that other chickens have come home to roost- like the ones that were hatched from marginalization of whole populations of people- denying them access to equal opportunities for education, jobs, etc...which helped to create the permanent underclass that we've been dealing with for pretty much most of the past century.
Maybe Lyndon Johnson's "Great Society" turned out to be a failure, obviously in some ways it has, but I think the impetus behind it was warranted because these people who are unable to afford health insurance didn't just pop up out of nowhere- and I am NOT talking about illegal aliens. I'm talking people whose ancestors were born and raised in this country and who have helped to build the infrastructures and have served in and continue to serve in the military forces protecting the freedoms of this country.

This country has the money to do what it wants to do whenever the powers that be decide they want to do something, (think: the war in Iraq) and most of our current debt has been incurred in the past eight years- if I remember correctly- so it's dishonest to lay that at Lyndon Johnson's door at this point.
I think the problem is less a problem of money, and more a problem of setting priorities. And that's at the level of the individual citizen as well.

To be honest, I doubt a nationalized health care system would work in the US, because of the attitude of entitlement of many of its citizens- and by that I mean, those who can afford privatized medicine would not want to contribute to socialized medicine for the masses- they wouldn't want their services to be impacted negatively, even if it means more of their fellow citizens would be positively impacted.
Alot of Americans seem to be able to brush aside the suffering of people they don't know- even other Americans. As long as they're all set- that's all that matters.
Maybe Miller can't brush it aside because she has to see it everyday-(I'm assuming she works as a healthcare professional).


PS- I believe in personal responsibility too- but if I saw someone suffering, I doubt I would even stop to wonder if they had health insurance or not, as if the fact that they didn't somehow justified their suffering and absolved me of responsibility to care about them.



That's interesting. I'd have thought it would have read, "The two daughters of the leech are "take, take"...

mm wrote :



several points come to mind :

1) i have yet to hear of "Govt paid healthcare " in any country .
the CITIZENS of a country may collectively pay into a health-insurance fund by way of premiums and/or taxes to enable them to receive healthcare when required .
i don't believe GOVERNMENTS pay for anything ; it's the CITIZENS that pay .

2) i'm not sure if mm is serious - but perhaps he is - when he talks about
"breast augmentation" when this case is about someone dying of cancer .

3) i wonder why the GOVERNMENT can decide to contract for a new building or for a spaceship to go to the moon and into outerspace
without giving the citizen a choice as to whether or not he/she is interested into contributing to it or not .
citizens don't have much of a choice when it comes to contribute for such projects by way of taxes ; they either pay their taxes , have their wages garnished , their property seized and perhaps even go to jail !

interesting choice imo .
the government says :
- spaceship , you pay or else ,
- health-insurance , why don't you find out if you qualify and can afford the premium . if you don't qualify : sorry about that !

4) i wonder if the carpenter would have qualified for UNCANCELLABLE health-insurance with a premium fixed for life and including a waiver of premium in case of sickness ?
(any other type of health-insurance is pretty well useles !)
would the premium have ben affordable ?

5) since at least some of those citizens without proper health-insurance will eventually have to be supported by the OTHER CITIZENS/TAXPAYERS - remember : the government doesn't pay for anything ! - , would it be unreasonable for ALL CITIZENS to pay into a fund that would allow them to at least a basic standard of care whether they qualify and have the money to pay for private insurance or not ?

6) if insurance companies would want to provide such a type of health-insurance , that would be quite acceptable imo - as long as they are not permitted to cherrypick !

hoping to be enlightened !
hbg

National health care is a great way to invest in the strength of a nation. No free rides, no beggars - unlike the current system. No excessive charges to people who have insurance to cover those who don't have it.
Everyone one pays into the system, everyone gets coverage - what's wrong with that? Pay doctors well, invest in our hospital infrastructure, invest in the health of our people, learn from the mistakes made by other countries. No profits for greedy insurance agencies, throw the bums out. Why doesn't that sound good? Why are trillions spent in Iraq OK, but heart surgery for a lower middle class kid in the Bronx makes people angry.

Why should businesses get stuck with paying for health care? It weakens America's companies that pay good wages - think GM and Chrysler. Why should corporations (including the insurance companies) determine what you will or won't be covered for or what doctors you will be able to see? I recently looked at plan that didn't list any of my current doctors. The plan would also not cover skin cancer for five years because I'm considered "high risk" as a landscaper- and I've never had it.

Get sick- you might find yourself "downsized" because you cost too much to keep on the company insurance. You health records are shared by all insurance companies - loose your insurance and all your past illnesses will be challenged if they resurface.

I recently went to a conference for small business owners. When asked about insurance, only a small handful felt that had adequate health care coverage. Many people had none or only their children were covered. It was the number one reason people stayed at a job they hate instead of opening a business - they can't afford start up costs and health coverage. So is that better for America? How many Americans are company drones because they need the health care coverage? America is forced to suckle it's businesses for health insurance instead of being independent by everyone paying their share.

Why are Americans so willing to be brainwashed by insurance companies that created this SCAM under the Nixon administration. You think the system we have is cheaper than a system where everyone pays? Think again. You pay more for your insurance because others don't have it. You get less service and more aggravation from your insurance company because once you get truly sick it's in their interest to see you dead.

It's time for Americans to stand together instead of circling the wagons around their McMansions. The focus should be on making America into a strong, healthy society instead of a bunch of feudal kings and nervous beggars.

green witch :

if you haven't seen my comments on the current ontario/canadian healthcare sytem , perhaps you might want to click here :
http://www.able2know.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2927737#2927737
hbg

I pulled that quote out from your link because it reminded me that Americans who buy a GM car are paying an additional $1200 because of GM's health care obligations.
Americans who think we don't currently pay for other American's health care are kidding themselves.

Green Witch for president!!

That was very nicely put.

Universal healthcare would be affordable if some practical and cost-efficient steps were taken. I always make the same complaints, but I swear a) this is the last time!, and b) the measures would below would help. Here's what typically happens where I live if you have a wart you want removed.

1. Notice wart.
2. See doctor. Confirms it is wart. Refers you to a dermatologist.
3. See dermatologist. Confirms it is a wart. Makes appointment for removal.
4. See dermatologist for removal.

Back in the day, you would have had this happen:

1. Notice wart.
2. See doctor. Confirms it is a wart and removes it.

For the most part today, doctors no longer perform these minor but very helpful "surgeries"... here's how economies could be effected:

1. Use nurses in doctors' offices to attend to the complaints, wherever possible. Their charge out rate is MUCH lower and it would save the system money.

2. No need to have a wart confirmed to be a wart by your local GP in order to be referred to a dermatologist. Hello? A wart is a wart is a wart. You should be able to just call the dermatologist yourself.

3. Have the specialist ready to remove said wart during the first visit instead of a follow up visit.

4. Have more medicines available over the counter. I buy burn cream but have to have a prescription which is obtained, of course, from my doctor. What a colossal waste of time. Why not have pharmacists give out the cream? Why have them under the counter, anyway?

5. Use Emergency Departments for EMERGENCIES only. If you're caught there with your runny-nosed child at 10 p.m., you get a big bill. Family physicians usually have an on-call service, so they should be used instead of ER depts. On top of that, your child didn't develop that runny nose at 10 p.m. Many visits to ERs are NOT emergencies. This is often why there are so many 4 - 5 hour long waits.

End of rant

What about the homeless, the permanently unemployed, and anybody else that has no income and cant pay?

You just wrote them off with your comment.

Which would lead back to the questions- What kind of civilization have we turned into? What kind of civilization do we want to be?

If the we don't want to contribute so that the homeless, permanently unemployed, mentally ill, disabled, etc. can have health insurance, what are we going to do to make jobs and education more available to all of those people within our society?

*I have to say- as much as I hate Wal-Mart in some ways, I have noticed they hire alot of people other companies would find unemployable for various reasons. I respect that.

In our system, where anyone has to have a health insurance - thus: mandatiry - everyone has got one.

Either a private (if earning so much to get over the level and deciding for it), are 'automatically' with your salary or any other mone you get for living (like social help, unemployment help etc).

Those with no income just pay the lowest fee. (Though mayn with no income have a private insurence here - income doesn't say anything about what and how much money you've got.)

It's "criminal" that most of the criminals in US prisons receive better medical care than our most destitute noncriminals.

Most Colleges of Optometry will offer a free eye exam and refraction to the poor. It's the best way for their students to get hands-on patient care.

That is interesting. So, in the US-health care system you better rob a bank to get (premium) health care.

Just wondering, is there any other western developed democracy that has close to 10% of people without medical insurance?

True

Chemotherapy for a man on DEATH ROW.

Now THAT just makes me wanna spit.

miller wrote :



i assume that it must be easy to reach a college of optometry .
i doubt that all people have a college of optometry close to were they live .
hbg

Never heard of it myself, and I worked in medicine for 6 years.

http://programs.gradschools.com/usa/optometry.html

Optometry schools in USA.

There's also a nightly medical van on Boston Common that offers many medical procedures to the homeless of Boston and the Lion Clubs offer free eye and hearing tests from their street van.