A curious comparison. Christianity/nazism

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If I were to declare myself a nazi there would be precious few places where I could walk with my head held high. I would be condemned for embracing a beliefsystem that has been responsible for the deaths of millions.

But if I said I was a christian it would be another story, even though more blood has been spilled in the name of christianity than in the name of nazism.

I do not understand why people want to associate their spiritual quest with a movement that has such a bleak history. If a person embraces christianity, doesn't he also condone the witch hunts, the inquisition and all the other horrors contrived in the name of this religion?

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Interesting. I wonder what the statistics actually show. Is there a way to calculate the number of murders per year committed by the various religious sects? And could you fine tune your figures to account for the relative size of each group? Say, number of murders per year per 100,000 adherents.

Kind of a gruesome study, wouldn't you think.

Curiously, there is one Christian group who, because they refused to cooperate with the Nazis, were sent in large numbers to concentration camps where they suffered along with the Jews. But by the time the war was over, their numbers had actually increased. Go figure.

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Which group was that?

I think it would be fun if someone with a little knowledge about the idealisms of the nazis were to join this thread. I admit that I do not know much beyond that they believed in a pure race of humans and sought to purge humanity.

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Cyracruz is being unfair. The poor Nazis had only about fifteen years to do their murdering whilst the Christians have had since the Council of Nicea in 325, where they began by rooting out all the followers of anything but the official myth.

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Kind of a gruesome study, wouldn't you think.

The Christians have never believed for a moment that killing someone for Christ is wrong. They believe god loves them more for it. Even when killing, or perhaps more especially while killing, another believer in Christ who may have strayed from the Word. Consider the Irish.

Joe(myths make men mad)Nation

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neologist wrote:

Interesting. I wonder what the statistics actually show. Is there a way to calculate the number of murders per year committed by the various religious sects? And could you fine tune your figures to account for the relative size of each group? Say, number of murders per year per 100,000 adherents.

Kind of a gruesome study, wouldn't you think.

Curiously, there is one Christian group who, because they refused to cooperate with the Nazis, were sent in large numbers to concentration camps where they suffered along with the Jews. But by the time the war was over, their numbers had actually increased. Go figure.

It would be very hard to work out, I would think.

And controversial.

For instance, would you count the numbers of women killed by back yard abortions in countries where christianiy forbids abortion (eg until recently, this was the leading cause of death of young women in Brazil, according to an article I read about it,...I think their laws have relaxed a little recently, so I don't know if this is still true)?

Many christians would want to put the aborted foetuses on the death count for secular humanism.

How many of the indigenous peoples who died when christian nations invaded them do we chalk up to christianity and how many to unturored human revoltingness?

It would also be hard because I imagine death tolls over the last 2,000 years might be hard to get.

Also, for most of christianity's direct killing history, there weren't so many people to kill.

Do we count actual numbers, or rates per year? Nazism was really only killing big time for 12 years....christianity has had 2,000 years.

I think the Nazis would win big time if we just do absolute numbers per year.

Also, christianity can get used for good purposes, too....think of the Quakers managing to convince England to ban slavery, and the slave railway in the USA.

Do the christians get people they saved off their total?

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I think that if we limit ourselves to witches burned in the witch hunts, people tortured to death by the inquisition or slayed by the crusaders, the number would still be higher that the nazis'.

And what's worse is that the bodycount isn't done yet. They're still going at it, which is more than we can say for the nazis. And double the woe; the nazis claimed to have god on their side, so all the murdering they did can also be attributed to christianity. Twisted Evil

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And Christianity makes itself out to be such a peaceful, loving and forgiving thing. Strange that it should flower into such mayhem.

Wars are typically fought over resources, though in the 'name of' religion. I wonder if Christianity just gets used as a tool by those who would kill anyway.

On the other hand, some aspect of Christianity seems to leave itself open to being used as a tool, where other religions don't seem to be exploited in the same way.

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neologist wrote:

Interesting. I wonder what the statistics actually show. Is there a way to calculate the number of murders per year committed by the various religious sects? And could you fine tune your figures to account for the relative size of each group? Say, number of murders per year per 100,000 adherents.

Kind of a gruesome study, wouldn't you think.

Curiously, there is one Christian group who, because they refused to cooperate with the Nazis, were sent in large numbers to concentration camps where they suffered along with the Jews. But by the time the war was over, their numbers had actually increased. Go figure.

Sadly, with the dark ages neatly tucked in there, we will never know.

The Nazis had but a short span of years to kill, although granted they had 20th Century technology. But Christians had centuries. And lots of firewood. :-)

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Cyracuz wrote:

I think that if we limit ourselves to witches burned in the witch hunts, people tortured to death by the inquisition or slayed by the crusaders, the number would still be higher that the nazis'.

And what's worse is that the bodycount isn't done yet. They're still going at it, which is more than we can say for the nazis. And double the woe; the nazis claimed to have god on their side, so all the murdering they did can also be attributed to christianity.

The major churches in Germany gave complete support to Hitler. The infamous Reichskonkordat, signed in 1933 by Franz Von Papen and Eugenio Cardinal Pacelli is a perfect example. Of all the religious groups, only the hated Bibelforscher opposed to the point of death.

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neologist wrote:

Cyracuz wrote:
I think that if we limit ourselves to witches burned in the witch hunts, people tortured to death by the inquisition or slayed by the crusaders, the number would still be higher that the nazis'.

And what's worse is that the bodycount isn't done yet. They're still going at it, which is more than we can say for the nazis. And double the woe; the nazis claimed to have god on their side, so all the murdering they did can also be attributed to christianity.
The major churches in Germany gave complete support to Hitler. The infamous Reichskonkordat, signed in 1933 by Franz Von Papen and Eugenio Cardinal Pacelli is a perfect example. Of all the religious groups, only the hated Bibelforscher opposed to the point of death.

Does anyone have access to publications and/or official statements made by the church that support the Nazi regime? What I'm specifically interested in, is what their stated reason for supporting his crusade of genocide. Do they quote the holy books?

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Googling 'religious complicity with nazis' gives some interesting results.

Here is some historical info:

Martin Luther, regarding Jews wrote:

. . . And let those whosoever can, throw brimstone and pitch upon them; if one could hurl hell-fire at them, so much the better....And this must be done for the honor of Our Lord and of Christianity, so that God may see that we are indeed Christians. Let their houses also be shattered and destroyed...Let their prayer books and Talmuds be taken from them, and their whole Bible too; let their rabbis be forbidden, on pain of death, to teach henceforth any more. Let the streets and highways be closed against them. Let them be forbidden to practice usury, and let all their money, and all their treasures of silver and gold be taken from them and put away in safety. And if all this not be enough, let them be driven like mad dogs out of the land.

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well then again, that's not much different from the account of what will happen to everyone that fails to join jehovah's witnesses, is it?

except of course that it will be god's angels, not nazis, that do the killing.

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tinygiraffe wrote:

well then again, that's not much different from the account of what will happen to everyone that fails to join jehovah's witnesses, is it?

except of course that it will be god's angels, not nazis, that do the killing.

'Joining' Jehovah's Witnesses will not accomplish anything other than hanging out with pretty nice folks. But there are plenty of nice folks who may be found all over.

And Jehovah's Witnesses may not be the only ones avoiding destruction in the 'day of Jehovah's anger.' But those heeding Revelation 18:4 will have a much better chance.

Of course, one would have to understand what Revelation 18:4 is referring to.

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Or have some interest in delving into mythology.

Joe(Yeats: St. Joseph thought the world would melt...)Nation

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I appreciate the degree of truth in Cryacuz' position. But I must say that I know many Christians and Christian organizations that would not condone genocide or even capital punishment, but I don't think this is so for any nazis.

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jln is right of course.

rosborne979 wrote:

And Christianity makes itself out to be such a peaceful, loving and forgiving thing. Strange that it should flower into such mayhem.

Wars are typically fought over resources, though in the 'name of' religion. I wonder if Christianity just gets used as a tool by those who would kill anyway.

On the other hand, some aspect of Christianity seems to leave itself open to being used as a tool, where other religions don't seem to be exploited in the same way.

fundamentalism is the key there. often used as a tool by nonbelievers to exploit and destroy, it's raw emotional power unchecked by principles or mercy. the good news is that power like that invariably kills itself. the thousand year reich lasted 10 years? christianity persists.

like the people that believe in it, there's good in it- and a lot of stupid. fundamentalism makes that stupid a priority, and "humanity" takes a back seat. find a way to remove the fundamentalism from religion, and christianity will look pretty good again- it would look more like jesus. and as was pointed out, some of them already "get it." i hope we can count on them, after all, those are not just christians, but humans- like us.

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Here's a thing.

Would one count the millions who died in the USSR and China, under Stalin and Mao respectively, as killed by atheism?

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If I were to declare myself a nazi there would be precious few places where I could walk with my head held high. I would be condemned for embracing a beliefsystem that has been responsible for the deaths of millions.

But if I said I was a christian it would be another story, even though more blood has been spilled in the name of christianity than in the name of nazism.

Odd, same could be said for declaring oneself American, a member of the greatest nation on earth.

Nazi= a political system based on an ideology
American=a political system based on an ideology

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Joe Nation
The Christians have never believed for a moment that killing someone for Christ is wrong.

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They believe god loves them more for it.

I doubt you have anything biblical to back this up.

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Rosborne
I wonder if Christianity just gets used as a tool by those who would kill anyway.

This has always been my view. The world is driven by power, not love, not money, and not religion.

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On the other hand, some aspect of Christianity seems to leave itself open to being used as a tool, where other religions don't seem to be exploited in the same way.

Islam? Although in Islams case it isn't explotation so much as a command.

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And Jehovah's Witnesses may not be the only ones avoiding destruction in the 'day of Jehovah's anger.' But those heeding Revelation 18:4 will have a much better chance.

I'm sure the last time I talked to JH's they believed they were the only ones going to heaven. The Mormons are of the same belief. I don't think any other Christian denomination believes in such exclusiveness.

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Islam sucks mightily, too in many ways...

However, don't christians believe (by and large) that only christians go to heaven? That's pretty damned exclusive. Don't even poor little unbaptised babies miss out?

There are some rocketing passages in the old testament about exterminating folk who don't believe in the one god....and didn't jesus say that only thse who believeth in him shall have eternal life?

There go the jews, I suspect.

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vikorr wrote:

neologist wrote:
And Jehovah's Witnesses may not be the only ones avoiding destruction in the 'day of Jehovah's anger.' But those heeding Revelation 18:4 will have a much better chance.

I'm sure the last time I talked to JH's they believed they were the only ones going to heaven. The Mormons are of the same belief. I don't think any other Christian denomination believes in such exclusiveness.

As far as I know, the JW's are the only ones who completely understand Revelation 18:4, but I could be wrong. If you had talked to many JW's you would know the vast majority don't expect to go to heaven.

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A curious comparison. Christianity/nazism

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