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The US, The UN and Iraq

 
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Feb, 2003 10:11 am
Must run...perception, I truly didn't mean to seem flip, it's just that I have spoken to your question as well as I am able. It won't be an easy task, but I think there is no good alternative.
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Anonymous
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Feb, 2003 10:15 am
Setanta:

Wow! Do I love history. Thanks for the micro-history, it was very enjoyalble reading! You remind me that I should start reading and studying history again, it was always one of my most favorite subjects.


Steve:

I with the ROW! This country is digging itself a real hole! It's a small wonder everyone hates our guts! We've earned it, BIGTIME!

Anon
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Feb, 2003 10:33 am
Very good post, Setanta. Little to argue with. And indeed, different conclusions may be drawn from similar evidence. I agree that America is "On a Cusp", and that her crediblity and intentions are at issue. I pray we have learned. Some fear we have not. The stakes are high, and we shall see.



timber
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Setanta
 
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Reply Mon 3 Feb, 2003 10:37 am
Sage words, Boss--the stakes are high . . .
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Steve 41oo
 
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Reply Mon 3 Feb, 2003 11:02 am
Setanta

Terribly nice of you to be so kind to us English rascals old boy! I've always thought we made a great mistake in allowing our N American colonies their freedom, never more so recently. Should you wish again to start paying tax into Her Majesty's Treasury, you are of course most welcome

Anon

Dont be too hard on yourself. Anyone with half a brain understands its not the American people they object to, and certainly not the founding ideals of the United States, but particular aspects of American foreign policy under certain administrations. LIKE NOW Sad
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Lightwizard
 
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Reply Mon 3 Feb, 2003 11:03 am
Our form of democracy being based on the Spartan model rather than the Athenian model and our inability to progress beyond the rubber stamping is hopefully headed for change. The course this administration has it on is in the Bermuda Triangle.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Feb, 2003 11:18 am
Steve, the city of Hilliard, Ohio gets 2% off the top, Ohio usually offers to send back less than $100 of my withholding, and the Feds have got their hand out, waiting for my check. I think Her Majesty will have to struggle along as best she can without my contribution for now.

LOL
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Lightwizard
 
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Reply Mon 3 Feb, 2003 11:27 am
Jespah would probably love to organize a new tea party in Boston harbor!
(She'd look striking in Indian drag). Laughing
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Steve 41oo
 
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Reply Mon 3 Feb, 2003 11:49 am
Setanta

Now I can guess the origin of your motto, as an excuse for non payment, "canis meus id comedit" perhaps?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Feb, 2003 12:15 pm
Steve, The Brits are the US's only true friend and ally, no matter how ill-advised. I'll stand up for you blokes any day of the week! c.i.
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Feb, 2003 12:25 pm
Tartarin

Sometimes there are posts that I wish I could take back--and this is one of those times. Congratulations should come from others and the truth that the US is a great country is demeaned by the shallowness of my comment to Blatham about Hitler.
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cobalt
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Feb, 2003 12:37 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
I think I share blathams view of the US.

Bush is taking us into a war that is not justified. Now I think perhaps the USA is not that great bastion of liberal democracy we respect, but merely the home territory of a global empire we fear.


Yep, yep, yep. Congrats to all posters of the last 24 hours - the discussion was so good that I've copied to Notepad to re-read carefully later on. Blatham and Setanta, you two are quite extraordinary guides for complicated issues.

My contribution here? Uh, the dog ate it.
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dyslexia
 
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Reply Mon 3 Feb, 2003 12:49 pm
could it be that the merits, pro and con, of the impending war on Iraq are lost to the world through the bellicosity of our administration?
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cicerone imposter
 
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Reply Mon 3 Feb, 2003 12:52 pm
Setanta, Bravo! I applaud your ability to express in a skilled manner what most of us feel about our position as the only superpower. We are at that crossroads now, because the president of our country feels unilateral action is needed, and many of our citizens agree. As reported in today's San Jose Mercury News, we are now hated by the world, while only two years ago, we were admired. Why can't our leaders see this? Or do they see, and that is the reason for the delay in action? We are now reaching critical mass; how will historians record this event in our history books? c.i.
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perception
 
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Reply Mon 3 Feb, 2003 01:11 pm
Steve

While listening to NPR this morning I was pleased to learn that not all of your countrymen believe as you. Bill Emmett, the editor of the economist, and the author of a new book titled "20/21 Vision"
is quite happy the US is the Preeminent power in the world and supports some views on this forum that while indeed flawed, the US is LESS flawed than any other powerful country. He is more conserned that the US, instead of becoming the imperial power that so many on this forum are hysterical about, is actually advocating it's own demise. Not because of any desire to become imperialistic, but because we are fostering the efforts of other world power structures such as the european union, China's growing inclination to move toward capitalism, and efforts to assist other large countries become more powerful. He also is supportive of our efforts to deal with Saddam as being the right thing to do.
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trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Feb, 2003 01:13 pm
Setanta wrote:
In regard to the debate about being a "superpower," i have the following observations to offer: ...

This may well be the most impressive post I have ever read. No, it is the most impressive post I have ever read. You offered a lot of excellent information (especially for someone like me who is not as well read, historically speaking, as he would like) and tied it all together with a reasonably made point. For whatever it may be worth, I say, "Well done!"

Not surprisingly, this bit in particular caught my attention:
Quote:
All of which brings me to the United States as "superpower." It is either naive or disingenuous to claim that American power is not imperial, or, at the least, hegemonic, in today's world. I would personally like to think that the human race builds not only upon a foundation of the accumulation of knowledge, but also of the experience of polities. Just as an individual will only enjoy the best that life has to offer by the process of maturation, so must nations also proceed. Human civilization ought to have reached, by now, the point at which old tribal values are abandoned, to be replaced by more realistic views of how more than six billion humans can live in peace on this planet. By all means, the United States needs to maintain an effective military, because the tribal fanatics are out there, their numbers are legion, and they have all the benefits of the technology of more stable, developed nations. This does not give the United States carte blanche, however, and the lessons i see from history suggest that we have a rare opportunity to use our power effectively. Ditching the United Nations will not accomplish anything constructive either for us or for the world.. Certainly, we need to "get the bastards" when and where appropriate, but we must not undercut our own values with regard to evidence, due process and justice in so doing. I also feel that we must not act alone, because then we become no better than the other militarily powerful nations who formed empires in the past. We have an opportunity to understand why so many others in the world are swayed to hatred of us, and we have an opportunity to act in a manner which, if it will not mollify all of our critics, at least will not do violence to the principles of a just society on which we like to pride ourselves.

I am not in complete agreement with you on every point here. (For one thing, I'm unconvinced of the usefulness of the UN today.) But I applaud the way you seem willing to separate the baby from the bath water, and recognize that although we ought always to strive for peace, we must also remain vigilant of and prepared for those who would not. I agree that we should try to work with other nations where and when we can, but I do think that some situations may require us to go it alone to serve our interests when others would not. Whether Iraq is one of those situations is a question I can not answer. I am skeptical, but hopeful, that those who would make those decisions for us can.

Thanks again for the pop-lesson in history. Keep 'em coming.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Feb, 2003 01:33 pm
when i, in the interest of repairing a broken fence between my neighbor and myself, holler over the fence (to a slighly overweight man) "hey you fat ole pig can you give me a hand". He is not likely to respond to the issue of the broken fence.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Feb, 2003 01:59 pm
Personally, I would suggest to the neighbor he either get used to my livestock in his fields or assist in the repair the fence himself. How I informed him of my assessment of the available options would be situational, and likely heavily dependent on how the matter and ramifications of the failed fence were brought to my attention.



timber
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Feb, 2003 02:04 pm
Boy, I'm glad I'm not your neighbor, timber. :wink:
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Feb, 2003 02:05 pm
The only problem with today's scenario is that all we have done is voice our displeasure at our furthest neighbor being a threat to our security, without any proof. c.i.
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