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The US, The UN and Iraq

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jan, 2003 04:04 pm
Quote:
"War talk has traders on Wall Street worried again, and the markets are down."


Quoted here is a statement just used by the announcer on NPR to introduce the financial report. I am not holding this out as an argument from authority--simply as an illustration of how much deeper the Shrub is digging what may be his political grave. Of course, the expression "It's the economy, stupid." will be dragged out and dusted off for this Bush, as well. What is that goofy boy thinkin'?
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jan, 2003 04:11 pm
The UN is likely nearly as good as it can be. It will always be limited by the average level of development of governments throughout the world. The forthcoming accession of Lybia to the chair of the UN Human Rights commission says all that need be said about these limits.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jan, 2003 04:12 pm
When did Bushie Boy say something about an "stimulus package?" Tax breaks for the rich isn't exactly a "stimulus package." The people that needs the tax breaks are the regular middle class and poor working people who can't afford to buy stocks that pays dividends or SUV's that costs upwards of $50,000. His kind of christianity surely has nothing to do with the teachings or the bible. He's also willing to kill some innocent Iraqi's to make his point. A god fearing man. Yeah, right. c.i.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jan, 2003 04:59 pm
c.i. - $75,000, and your getting to logical.

http://www.seacoastonline.com/news/01222003/news/8888.htm
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jan, 2003 05:03 pm
Quote:
Bush delivered his message in front of a fake wall of cardboard boxes stamped "Made in U.S.A." The real boxes, set to Bush's side, had their "Made in China" stamps blotted out.


http://asia.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=businessNews&storyID=2091044

It's getting better and better - I think he hit the trifecta!
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jan, 2003 05:13 pm
BillW, According to the link you provided in your 19:59 post, it seems Bushie boy only cares about the rich people surving crashes. He claims people in SUV's have a better chance at survival. How about the poor folks that can't afford those SUV's, because of the higher cost to purchase, the higher insurance cost, and the extra fuel to drive in one. If Bushie fears god, I wonder who we should fear? ;( c.i.
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jan, 2003 05:25 pm
Cicero,

I know this is way off point, but since you've raised the issue of how a tax ut should be arranged, let me share this that was sent to me the other day by an old friend. I don't know the original source, but don't think that's of much importance.

Quote:
Let's put tax cuts in terms everyone can understand. Suppose that every day, ten men go out for dinner. The bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men --the poorest -would pay nothing; the fifth would pay $1, the sixth would pay $3, the seventh $7, the eighth $12, the ninth $18, and the tenth man --the richest --would pay $59.

That's what they decided to do. The ten men ate dinner in the restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement --until one day the owner threw them a curve (in tax language a tax cut).

"Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20." So now dinner for the ten only cost $80.00.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free. But what about the other six --the paying customers? How could they divvy up the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his "fair share"?

The six men realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would end up being PAID to eat their meal. So the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay. And so the fifth man paid nothing, the sixth pitched in $2, the seventh paid $5, the eighth paid $9, the ninth paid $12, leaving the tenth man with a bill of $52 instead of his earlier $59.

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to eat for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings. "I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man, but he, (pointing to the tenth) got $7! "Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man," I only saved a dollar, too, It's unfair that he got seven times more than me!" "That's true!" shouted the seventh man, "why should he get $7 back when I got $2? The wealthy get all the breaks"!

Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor"!

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. The next night he didn't show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him. When it came time to pay the bill, they discovered, a little late, that which was so very important.....They were FIFTY TWO DOLLARS short of paying the bill!

Imagine that!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college instructors, is how the
tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up at the table anymore. Where would that leave the rest?

Unfortunately, most taxing authorities anywhere cannot seem to grasp this
rather straightforward logic!
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jan, 2003 05:35 pm
Good spin Asherman.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jan, 2003 05:39 pm
Yeah, Asherman, That's all that is: spin. The real world will never end up that way, and you know it. Or don't you? How many ways do you think the government taxes its citizens? Let me count the ways. They bill us in so many different ways, it's hard to keep track. c.i.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jan, 2003 05:44 pm
some logic as well as simple math is missing in the analogy but it makes a cute spin.
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jan, 2003 05:46 pm
Snopes lists this little ditty and starts off saying:

Quote:
The only question we're covering about this humorous parable explaining "how taxes really work" is its authorship, and the investigation reveals this item to be one of those favored pieces of writing adopted and reprinted by numerous columnists without their knowing (or necessarily caring) who originally penned it.


By putting the first line in Goggle:

Quote:
Let's put tax cuts in terms everyone can understand.


There are 185 replies. So this baby has made the rounds!
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jan, 2003 06:51 pm
It looks like a done deal, "Iraq or Bust"?

Quote:


http://www.msnbc.com/news/862957.asp?vts=012220031635
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jan, 2003 07:33 pm
BillW, Is it true that more people are beginning to see GWBush for who he is/isn't? Wink c.i.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jan, 2003 07:43 pm
the bit asherman posted about taxes was worked into the ground on abuzz a couple of years ago. a couple of economists made absolute hash of it. amusing when you read it, but when you start analyzing it (not my strong suit, i do stats not economics), it doesn't hold up.

billw - i threw it into google as well - got over 21000 hits!

this was an interesting analysis of it (a little more belligerent than what i was looking for, but it'll do) http://www.politicalstrategy.org/2003_01_14_weblog_archive.htm

hmmmm, it's a weblog - in case the link funks out, i'll post the end of it separately
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jan, 2003 07:46 pm
this is from the weblog link above - it follows the bit posted by asherman

Quote:
WHAT? So, let's see, this suggests that if we make the wealthy people angry, they're likely to do... what? Stop making money? Renounce their citizenship? Incorporate offshore? Stop paying their taxes? What? I would like to know. And whatever "it" is that would cause them "not to show up at the table", I hope "it" informs them that they are no longer welcome doing business in America. Oh, and by the way, 50 people are already vying for that spot that they abandoned because they recognize that this particular spot at the table has far more advantages associated with it than disadvantages.

Well, once you forge your way through all the condescension and whining self-ingratiation, you come to the moral of the parable:

1) We should pray that, maybe some day, we too can be a part of that "lucky" group of people who earn $12,000 per year and pay no income tax.

2) We better be darn grateful to all those wealthy people for paying for our dinner.

3) We should do everything we can to make life easier for them. and

4) We should be ashamed that we wanted to give a financial boost to the working poor.

At first, I thought this was a joke, but I quickly realized that this was a sincere attempt by a Republican hack to "tell it like it is." My friend was dead serious. Of course, therein lies the problem. Republicans would have everyone believe that there is no tax besides income tax. Nevertheless, you and I know that this "analysis" is grossly spun to create sympathy for those poor, overtaxed millionaires by eliminating any payroll, sales or other taxes (including tolls on public infrastructure) from the equation...a typical Republican tactic.

In reality, as a percentage of income, these taxes weigh far more heavily on the poor. So indeed, none of those mentioned in this analogy pay $0. The fact of the matter is that if the Bush Administration wanted to help all Americans and stimulate the economy, it would cut payroll taxes, not dividend taxes or capital gains taxes or estate taxes.

Anyway, if Republicans really want to address those who pay no taxes, let's take a look at the massive number of corporations who earn millions if not billions which not only pay no taxes, but also receive massive government subsidies, contracts and seeming encouragement to incorporate offshore. (That is fodder for an article of it's own. Coming soon.)

Before going, I owe an apology to Professor Thomas Davies at the University of South Dakota, to whom this "taxation Parable" was wrongly attributed. The true author obviously didn't feel comfortable attributing it to himself.
posted by Thomas Ball 9:44 AM
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jan, 2003 07:53 pm
ehBeth, I'm not a statistician nor an economist, but still have the ability to understand with some limits the English language. Asherman's parady is really the joke that the republicans like to play in this arena where most people do not bother to analyze. It may fool most of the people, but not me! I didn't work as a bean counter for over thirty years without some understanding of bean matters. Wink c.i.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Jan, 2003 07:05 am
This from CNN's Talkback Live, yesterday:

The credibility of the United States, I think, rests on whether we're pursuing a war that's perceived as just and sensible. The United States squandered its reputation during the Vietnam War on exactly this ground, the claim that we were going to lose face.

Here we go again. Except, this time, I think it's only really one face that's at risk, and that's the face of the unelected president of the United States, who sees this as his ticket to more years in the White House. And what this does for American security is beyond me. The same man who is pursuing Saddam Hussein, at the cost of many billions of dollars, is depriving the states and the cities of the money that we need to shore up security.

We shouldn't be going to war with Iraq. We should be safeguarding our ports if we want to keep Americans safe.


The words of Todd Gitlin, a professor of journalism and sociology at Columbia University and the author of "The 60s: Years of Hope, Days of Rage."

Link here.
0 Replies
 
perception
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Jan, 2003 09:38 am
PDiddie

Have you ever heard the expression "The best defense is a great Offense"?

Sounds to me like you favor isolationism------ In a global environment?

If Bush is the only one losing face why should you get so worked up?
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Jan, 2003 09:43 am
perception="The best defense is a great Offense"?

offense sells tickets-defense wins games.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Jan, 2003 09:45 am
<Have you ever heard the expression "The best defense is a great Offense"?>

No, is that original? Can I use it, maybe, sometime?

<Sounds to me like you favor isolationism------ In a global environment?>

Get your hearing checked. I favor neither isolationism nor antagonism in the form of an unprovoked military attack.

<If Bush is the only one losing face why should you get so worked up?>

I wouldn't be all worked up if I could get off this bus he's driving.
0 Replies
 
 

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