The US, The UN and Iraq

Let me take this quick moment to buy a beer for all in attendance. This is really quite an exceptional crowd.

Asherman
Thanks for the glowing analysis of my command capability----I'm sure you are correct just as you are in all things. We are both old men but while I believe you to be living in past dreams of men dying gloriously on the field of battle, I perfer to live in the future and dream instead of the perfectly fought war with no casualties and still a great victory.

You are indeed a stubborn man with such sweet dreams of men dying in battle---is making widows so important to you just to prove a point?

perception,

Thanks for your kind words. I concede that in every reading of events in the civil war I am caught up in the now evident folly of many of its leading actors and even more by the human cost of the struggle - on both sides. However I have come to suspect that much of this is due to the fact that, like most Americans, I have a much more detailed knowledge of the Civil War than any other and can relate much more directly to its events and places. Other wars have involved as much folly and slaughter, but it is only with effort or accidental discovery that we learn about it. Thanks to the Jesuits, I have a rather detailed knowledge of the events of the Second Punic War. In terms of equality of weapons, foolish generalship and slaughter it is certainly the equal of our Civil War. It also involved as much greatness, wisdom and wise strategy in its other parts.

I believe I understand your views with respect to our troops in Korea. Indeed I shared them myself until (believe it or not) I read some of Asherman's earlier posts on this thread. Certainly the removal of our troops and our guarantee of security would be a fitting response to the childish public resopnse of some South Korean media and people to our presence there and our appropriate rejection of their "sunshine" policy.

However, Asherman reminded me that it is the North Koreans who are the unvarying threat and are the appropriate object of our policy. South Korean public attitudes will change as the bad news about the North's intentions sinks in. We should not allow our pique to cloud our judgement in this or any other matter.

I should add, at this point that Asherman's most recent post was well beneath the remarkably high standards of objectivity and fact-based analysis he had set in his earlier ones. We should give him room to retake his former position.

I do recognize the great potential of airpower and modern weapons and targeting systems. I also have some idea of their limitations. It may surprise you to know that I spent a great part of my professional life as a Naval Aviator serving on various aircraft carriers in theatres from the Mediterranean to the Persian Gulf.

george said: That's just a tad unhumble and patronizing, possibly? I've posted some links above that ought to, if read, widen out the viewpoint.

Georgeob1
Thanks for your last post which clarified your position on several issues---I take my hat off to anyone who has flown off carriers. I can think of no greater physical challenge than trying to land on a carrier at night in the rain. I too am an aviator but always in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong equipment. The F-100 which I have the most time in( 3000 hrs )was an absolute lead sled and the A-1 skyraider which I flew in Vietnam was a world war II vintage airborne tank. Hardly examples of the technology I refer to in my recent posts---they do however point out the vast improvement in our analysis of needs, the research and development required to satisfy the requirements and then the streamlined procurement system which turns out the product to the end user.

It points also to our recognition that maintaining our advantage must be a constant process along with adequate pay for our military personnel and adequate funds for the procurement of new weapons systems. That recognition was missing for many years.

I actually agree with you, Timber and Asherman on most issues but I delight in presenting a slightly different point of view and then trying to defend that position. A very difficult task against the high calibre of learned folks on this forum. I am forced to go off and lick my wounds more often than I would like.

Looking forward to more of your posts.

blatham,

Offhand I don't think was unduly patronizing or even unhumble in my characterization of the reactions of some members of the South Korean media and public. I looked back at least 13 pages on this rather long thread and didn't find your links. It is a long thread by now -could you give me a better clue?

Georgeob1

Since you're new here let me throw in a word about one of our forum guides---Blatham. He is one of our intellectual Canadian neighbors but as with all intellectuals his perception of events is somewhat clouded by a considerable amount of idealistic "mumbo jumbo")))))))))))).

He delights in trying to pop our balloon as our perceived position as the worlds protector and our actual position as the worlds only superpower))))))))))

Oh hi Blatham---hope you're feeling rested and ready to blast our arrogance and puffed up self importance.

Perception,

Well I'm always glad to meet a Spad driver! It was a Navy aircraft you know. Sitting behind an R3350 & its 4 bladed prop in an (occasionally) open cockpit could not have been all bad. There was a famous incident in Vietnam in which a Naval aviator in a Spad downed a MIG 17. A great story and full of irony and humor - he was my roommate in flight training.

Recovering aboard a carrier in the rain (particularly at night) was always bad. One was propelled only by what I came to call the Jackass Principle -- "If that jackass can do it then so can I' !

george...begging your pardon...I'd been posting links into quite a number of threads this morning and got myself confused...try here
http://able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2328&start=90

perception

Thank you for the kindly introduction which is oddly reminiscent of the way my new mother-in-law introduced me to her sisters.

Georgeob1

Oh yes you could tell it was a navy job---it was built to withstand those controlled crashes you guys called landings))))

I did have the pleasure of flying the A-1H with the bubble canopy---vastly different from the A-1E which would carry about 20 vietnamese(no seats) and would carry wall to wall munitions as well as the 4- 20MMs in the wings and would stay airborne for hrs on just internal fuel.

Please send me a Private Msg and tell the story of your room-mate shooting down the MIG.

The "Jackass principle" I love it.

timber, McClellen had more than horse saddles named after him. An airfield near Sacramento, California, also honored his name. c.i.

Well Blatham, no one is a hero to a new mother-in-law, but we will accept and forgive you - and even acknowledge the roile you play here.

blatham,

I read the NYT articles in your links with interest. I find the views described there of young affluent Koreans who have no experience or memory of the war there, and who view the conflict with the North as involving the United States and not themselves, as childish in the extreme. I should have been even more unhumble and patronizing.

North Korea presents a grave threat to the ROK and has illustrated it with numerous attacks on the coastal defense forces of that country, insertions of spys and assassins into the ROK and many other hostile acts. North Korea is a serious threat to the very prosperity and freedom that so entrance the self-centered youth of Seoul in their solipsistic and childish wish that the problem would just go away if only we would stop calling their attention to it.

I will gracefully accept your retraction.

georgeob1, this balding and arthritic old Jarhead bears particular affection for that even then anachronistic Douglas Airborne Ordnance Warehouse. That timber is here today owes much to The Skyraider's having been there then. Kudos.



timber

George
Really have you EVER seen or heard of anyone on this or any other forum admit to being wrong))))))))))

One of you should start a spin-off thread on airpower and it's value in modern warfare. Having worked on the technology of nearly all modern aircraft, it would be interesting to hear the user side of the picture. I was once in a conference with General Dynamics engineers and some top Airforce pilots in designing cockpit instrumentation and it was enthralling to hear and understand what the pilots thought of some of the designs.

george

Of course it is not simply affluent young south Koreans. Try a little harder, my goodness.

The relevant points here are self determination of policy and values in other states, and in an honest acknowledgement of the role of hegemony in US policy, particularly as presently demonstrated. http://www.nybooks.com/articles/15698 or even better http://www.lrb.co.uk/v24/n19/liev01_.html

The US, as has been discussed on this and other threads here recently, though always to be counted on to mention the words 'freedom' and 'democracy' in it's proscriptions and justifications regarding why it is behaving in the world as it is, has been and is acting in transparent self-interest. So Germans and French are just wacky in their disagreement, Canadians are perhaps jealous, etc. The rest of the world just doesn't really appreciate how good hearted and sacrificial the US is. In the inimitable words of American oscar winner Randy Newman from the song Political Science...
No one likes us-I don't know why
We may not be perfect, but heaven knows we try
But all around, even our old friends put us down
Let's drop the big one and see what happens

We give them money-but are they grateful?
No, they're spiteful and they're hateful
They don't respect us-so let's surprise them
We'll drop the big one and pulverize them

Asia's crowded and Europe's too old
Africa is far too hot
And Canada's too cold
And South America stole our name
Let's drop the big one
There'll be no one left to blame us

We'll save Australia
Don't wanna hurt no kangaroo
We'll build an All American amusement park there
They got surfin', too

Boom goes London and boom Paree
More room for you and more room for me
And every city the whole world round
Will just be another American town
Oh, how peaceful it will be
We'll set everybody free
You'll wear a Japanese kimono
And there'll be Italian shoes for me

They all hate us anyhow
So let's drop the big one now
Let's drop the big one now

Blatham

I'm curious what your new mother-in-law thought of your blue skin)))))))))---is that to signify you're a proponent of the Canadian "Purple suit concept of your military" or is it to signify you're not a racist?

perception

It is actually merely a side effect from rather too much of Pfizer dye.