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The US, The UN and Iraq

 
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2003 01:51 pm
But, back to the subject at hand.

Thank you for the good post, Ul.
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Kara
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2003 01:54 pm
Interesting post, Walter. Where did you dig that up?
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2003 01:56 pm
Pre-emptive as of January 26, 1998 (minimum)!
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2003 01:56 pm
The source is at the end of the quote, Kara.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2003 01:58 pm
Kind of a nefarious list, isn't it Walter?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2003 02:02 pm
Some years later, they are giving some more details there, e.g. about the Gulf region, and who should be the present nation there:

http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2003 03:34 pm
1. Glad the Amis essay hit home. Its difficult to deny he has a way with words.
2. I am asked to put up the arguments or policy that is a practical alternative to war.

I don't deny the logic that leads to war - Saddam is in breach, therefore kill him. But NOT WAR is never in contradiction of logic, in my opinion. The alternative positions revolve around allowing more time for Blix to complete his work. Now what is wrong with that? Does anyone seriously think that if we don't go to war with Iraq in the next few days, Saddam will destroy us?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2003 03:42 pm
Steve, Fear of fear is a disability, and logic goes out the window. c.i.
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trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2003 03:59 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
The alternative positions revolve around allowing more time for Blix to complete his work. Now what is wrong with that? Does anyone seriously think that if we don't go to war with Iraq in the next few days, Saddam will destroy us?

Thanks for responding. I want to counter a couple of things and challenge a point or two but let me first say that I understand your point of view. Please don't misconstrue my disagreement as a sign of disrespect.

Last things first, I would have no problem giving Blix "a few more days"; in fact, we seem to be doing just that. I suspect that "just a few more days" won't garner your support for war though. Am I wrong?

Now, can you give me an idea of what specifically you believe continued inspections will do to eliminate the threat Iraq poses. (I'm not trying to be dense here, but neither do I want to put words in your mouth. If you tell me exactly what it is you think this will accomplish, it allows me to either see a point I had not seen before or to more accurately debate your position. In either case, we're both ahead, right?)

Thanks for having a little faith.
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Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2003 04:13 pm
Steve,

Quote:
I don't deny the logic that leads to war - Saddam is in breach, therefore kill him. But NOT WAR is never in contradiction of logic, in my opinion. The alternative positions revolve around allowing more time for Blix to complete his work. Now what is wrong with that? Does anyone seriously think that if we don't go to war with Iraq in the next few days, Saddam will destroy us?


1. "Allow more time for the UN Inspection teams to complete their work (disarm Saddam)". You ask what's wrong with that. There isn't anything wrong with that if at the end of the process Saddam Hussein was disarmed, and no longer a threat to regional peace and world security. Is that possible, or improbable?

For 12 years Saddam made a mockery of disarmament, and secretly continued to acquire the very weapons he was pledged to destroy. The country was filled with UN Inspectors, but they never had a clue to the secret weapons programs until defectors blew the whistle. When the UN Inspection teams began to be tougher, Saddam kicked them out of country. The only consequence was a few days of cruise missiles. Four years later, Saddam again ignored demands that he disarm and refused to permit inspections until heavily armed American troops began to gather on his borders. He grudgingly let in a small number of Inspectors, and stonewalled them. He made a large declaration that said he had no prohibited weapons, but failed to account for huge stores of prohibited weapons that were well-known and documented. He denies everything, and when caught in his web of lies, just makes a token adjustment to his existing position. That's the history of a man who has invaded two of his neighbors in recent memory, who has fired missiles into the urban centers of Saudi Arabia and Israel. This is the man who has made a life of murder and lying to achieve his personal ends. Is the a man to be trusted?

If we do fail to resolve the Iraqi problem again, what will the probable result be? First, we will have to remove our troops and then Saddam will have no reason to comply with the Inspectors. He and his French/Russian partners will push to have sanctions lifted so that Iraqi oil can be exploited. Saddam will lead the Inspectors around by their noses until he tires of the game and then will kick them out of the country. He will step up his weapons programs, and his efforts to acquire nuclear weapons will again take center stage. If he can sell oil, he will be able to afford rebuilding his military strength to Iran War levels. Inside Iraq, repression will continue and some who are now ready to overthrow him will be discovered, tortured and murdered. Kuwait and Turkey will be threatened, and targeted for terrorist attacks.

At the end of the year, Saddam will be stronger and more dangerous. Our allies and Saddam's neighbors will have less faith in the ability of the United States to effect change in the region. Saddam's threat will be more evident, and once again the UN will be forced to take some action. What will the world's opinion about disarming Saddam be like if he invades Kuwait or Iran again. If an Iraqi nuclear missile explodes over Israel, what will the UN say to the survivors? Will the world's pacifists still want to shield Saddam if his biological, or nerve agents are unleashed on New York, or London?

What action will the UN be able to take a year from now? If Bush withdraws now, it is very unlikely he will be able to reassemble a similar force during a Presidential election campaign. The cost in dollars spent todate will have been wasted, and the loss of American credibility will be enormous. So who will provide the military force to disarm Saddam Hussein after he has another year to strengthen his forces, and acquire additional so-called weapons of mass destruction? France? Russia? Belgium?

That's whats wrong with putting off the unpleasant task for another year, or two.

2. "Does anyone seriously think that if we don't go to war with Iraq in the next few days, Saddam will destroy us". No, Saddam won't destroy us in the next few days if we don't disarm him. However, if we don't disarm him in the next few weeks the danger that he poses to world peace, stability and security will take a quantum jump. That's the direct threat that will continue to increase over the next year, or so, until Saddam again lashes out at the world. The indirect threat is that others, notably Kim Jong-Il, will interpret the withdrawl of American forces as a weakness to be exploited. The DPRK can not be encouraged to threaten and push the world toward the brink of war. Why would Kim believe that we are willing to oppose a nuclear armed DPRK when we hadn't the stomach to fire the coup de grace into the head of his friend Saddam?

Finally, to withdraw without carrying this to its conclusion would very likely reshape American foriegn policy into one of Isolation. In my opinion, it would be a world disaster if the United States suddenly ceased being actively involved in world affairs.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2003 05:13 pm
Asherman -- There's a big difference between being actively involved in world affairs (as we were, say, during the Clinton administration under a president who earned and received great respect from leaders overseas), and being unilateralist arm- twisters and unprovoked aggressors (as we are being right now, during the Bush administration under a president who has scorned and lost the respect of leaders overseas).
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2003 05:18 pm
Asherman -- There's a big difference between being actively involved in world affairs (as we were, say, during the Clinton administration under a president who earned and received great respect from leaders overseas), and being unilateralist arm- twisters and unprovoked aggressors (as we are being right now, during the Bush administration under a president who has scorned and lost the respect of leaders overseas). For that reason, I would much prefer to see our troops withdrawn respectfully and our foreign policies (and Pentagon primacy) rethought. That WOULD put the administration in a better light and earn Bush some deserved respect.
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Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2003 05:47 pm
Tartan,

And how do you propose to handle all the other problems that are probable if the United States withdraws from the Iraqi situation? Its true a whole lot of pacifists would be dancing in the streets. You've asked what's wrong with continued containment, and/or withdrawl, and I've given you a number of reasons why those are not viable options. If we avoid war now, there will be consequences. How do you propose dealing with those consequences?
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2003 05:50 pm
So we simply must go to war because Bush said so and to back down would make him loose face - That's ludicrous
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Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2003 06:04 pm
Bill,

I not only didn't say that, I specifically and categorically excluded that as a reason to push the Iraq question to a conclusion.

Why not go back and read what I wrote before mis-stating what I said.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2003 06:12 pm
For those who wish to do something.

http://www.moveon.org/emergency/

c.i.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2003 06:12 pm
Relying on the post before it - that's how it reads to me - I don't reread whole sequences, because at times it becomes difficult to follow all sequences?

What should we do, be happy with peace as long as we can muster peace - and to hell with saving Bush's face!!!!!!!!!

Anything else is ludicrious!!!!!!!
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Kara
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2003 08:14 pm
Bill, I'm not sure I agree with your reasoning but I agree with your conclusion. As long as "peace" is working, however that is happening, we are being given time to think, plan, and avoid war.

Containment means to me that the world, not just us, is watching Saddam Hussein. Inspections, whatever they are or are not, provide a holding pattern, and the cynosure of the world's eyes is Iraq. It is possible, of course, that he is sneaking bio and chem weapons to someone outside of Iraq. Aside from the question of why he would do this -- when the only reason he would have them, to my mind, is to use them defensively or as a threat -- the real issue is how much can you do when the whole world is watching? How about an armed inspection team, a multinational force -- call it inspectors, call it what you will. Such focused interest by the world will encourage dissidents in Iraq, increasing the pressure on Saddam's regime. Any regime change should come from inside Iraq or from opposition groups who have retreated from Iraq out of fear; the country ought to be run by Iraqis if and when Saddam is deposed.

Did anyone read the Iranian suggestion for containment? I have forgot the details or where I read it, but it is ideas like this, no matter where they come from or how they are motivated, that make me wonder at our administration's lack of imagination.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2003 08:19 pm
A stepped up inspection team - more responsibilities, more people and armed. Since we have troops in there - maybe even, the "No Fly Zone" gets taken over on the ground and in the air! Constant constricting boundry - of course, approved by the UN and more International in flavor - lots of Arab forces in the coalition!
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2003 08:29 pm
PBS tonite. US started with 4 votes in the security council as of today had 4 votes in the security council-US will NOT offer second resolution per definite defeat. what does this do to Tony Blair?
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