The US, The UN and Iraq

Amen, I hope and pray that history shows that you were right

hiama says:



Nice try, but bad interpretation. It is a sad day whenever some say we should go into an immoral war. Iraq now has the moral high ground. If one wants a justification of a Pre-emptive War; Iraq, not the USA, has that moral high ground.

Why does anyone wish for war when peace and constructive disarmament is at hand? Why give up the moral high ground to a maniac?

It is a sad time we are in!!!!!!!!! 1.5 million Brits speak out-let there be peace!!!!

nowar nowar nowar nowar

It's a sad day when an American would say that Iraq has the high moral ground. I guess gassing your own people, murdering those who oppose you, and funding homocide bombers passes for moral action with some people.

<sigh>

"Show me one instance where Bush is demonizing an ally.."

Well, for starters, "Old Europe." Then we could move over to the demonization (and alienation) of German leadership. Axis of evil -- which everyone seems to agree is the phrase which ticked of North Korea (understandably) and made them decide to "get our attention" -- and now South Korea. And Mexico -- after a heavy courtship, a rude separation which undoubtedly contributed to the eloquent put down of Bush's proposed war by the Mexican representative's speech in the SC yesterday. Spain will probably experience it soon -- that government is in real trouble now that 90% of its populace are actively against their government's alliance with Bush.

You may mean that our allies don't like Bush or don't agree with him, but I haven't seen demonization coming from their side, just from ours.

I'd like to add something here which is going to drive many fellow participants nuts, but for those of us who have known or been close to alcoholics in our lives, Bush has a familiar face. Hearty friendliness, quick temper, alienation, demonization, inarticulateness, bullying, defensiveness, and no-win risk-taking (destructiveness) all wrapped up in one human. This may sound like pettifoggery, but it explains quite a lot to this citizen.

Tartarin - No country named within the Axis of Evil is an ally of the US. Try again. And please give me a specific citation with link; if you're going to write it, you need to be able to back it up. (I ask no more of you than I expect asked of me.)

Bill W,

If I have badly interpreted I am sorry it was not my intention.

I'm not saying it is right that we should go to war, it isn't in my opinion. It MAY be necessary however if by not doing so we allow ourselves to be seen as weak targets for terrorist groups around the world and States run by dictators whose very people are scared to death of talking to the weapon inspectors as they do not know what to say. If they speak the truth it is certain that they and their families will be terminated. All discussions with scientists known to have information about chemical weapons and WMD have been interviewed only in the presence of the Iraqui secret police or Hussein's henchmen. I would like to state that at no time have I said that Bush has the high ground, there are no degrees of elevation here, we are all in the proverbial mire.

Bill if there was a referendum in this country I have no doubt that the result would be a landslide against war and I would be voting against war myself. However it is not that simple. In the UK there has been an increasing torrent of asylum seekers fleeing the regimes in Iraq, Zimbabwe and Somalia, as well as some still from Croatia. A lot of these would now be dead if they had stayed and whilst not all of them have legitimate cases for asylum for every one that gets here there are 100's still out there being persecuted.

Do you seriously think this will stop of its own acccord and because a few million nice compassionate people have held a few peace marches.

I would love to believe so and I pray for it every night the fact is, it will not and somebody at the end of the day has to stand up to tyranny.

Compare Chamberlain's approach to Churchill's -would you have backed Chamberlain, peace in our time ?

Had we done so we might all be speaking with german accents now.

Georgeob1

Thanks for the compliment on my post---your opinion matters greatly to me because I such great respect for your logical thinking and writing ability.

Perception

tres, You keep going back twelve years in history. If you want to play the history game, the US is not pure either. We are talking about 'TODAY' and TOMORROW. c.i.

You perhaps remember, where the 'Angels' and 'Saxons' lived (and their 'brothers and sisters' still live) before invading England?

However, Churchill's approach wasn't bad for you, indeed:

seems to me that Reagan was unharmed politically when he backed out of Lebanon, the egg on his face along with hundreds of G.I.'s dead hardly made a dent in his career (as it were) Bush just might very well step aside in his Crusade and save face at the same time.

ci - Nobody needs to go back 12 years to show Saddam brutalizing and murdering his people, and I find no merit in your assertion of a moral equivalence between the US and Iraq.

Bill W

Actually, I was referring yesterday to the dismissal of Mohammed Allawi, who works for the state-run Iraqi news agency and has become "harmful to U.S. interests."

But today, this happened as well:

"Fox News Crew Kicked Out of Iraq
Sat, Feb 15, 2003 12:17 PM PDT

LOS ANGELES (Zap2it.com) - Iraq told a four-person crew from Fox News to leave its office in Baghdad Friday (Feb. 14). The move is believed to be a retaliation for the U.S. expulsion of an Iraqi journalist who covered the United Nations.
The Fox News crew -- correspondent Greg Palkot and three other staff members -- was not given a reason why it was told to leave the country. However, John Stack, vice president of news gathering for the cable channel, says the booting of the Iraqi reporter probably triggered Baghdad's response.
"We have reason to believe it was a tit-for-tat situation," Stack tells the AP. "We'll probably get the official reason [Saturday]."
The federal government on Friday told Mohammed Allawi, who works for the state-run Iraqi news agency, to leave the United States within 15 days. Allawi says the letter he received from the government says he has become "harmful to U.S. interests."
A government official who asked to remain anonymous confirms Allawi's statement, saying the reporter "engaged in activities considered to be harmful to the security of the United States."
Fox News, meanwhile, says it will continue to cover Iraq from neighboring countries. "It's a difficult place for a journalist to try to conduct business," Stack says, "and this is just another chapter." "

Tartarin

Re: your statement---"Maybe we can separate Stalin from communism"

This statement would indicate your sympathies for the modern Marxist doctrine which blames Stalin for the failure of communism.
Would you care to enlighten us about Marxism? You also seem reluctant to disclose your country of residence---since you seem contemptuous of anything American perhaps you would enlighten in that regard also.

tres, But your comparison only between the US and Iraq is very myopic. There are many tyrants that are treating their citizens in inhumane ways - today. The majority of people in this world understands how Saddam treats his people. Why keep repeating something most of us already understand? What about the other thousands, if not millions of people in other countries? We're not talking only about US and Iraq on this issue, or are we? The main issue we are discussing, I think, is this immoral war the US is engaging to have with Iraq. They pose no threat as long as the UN inspectors and the world are watching Iraq. Saddam and his henchmen have already claimed they have no WMD. Let's give the UN inspectors more time to prove them wrong. In the mean time, the world is secure, and nobody is getting killed - at the behest of the US military. c.i.

Besides, how does one ethically justify killing innocent Iraqi's just because Saddam is doing so? c.i.

Last of my ancestors to cross the Atlantic to America did so in 1674 (I just found that out!!), Perception, and their descendants have pretty much stuck around. And anyway, why would you think I'm either for or against communism (neither, as it happens) just because I want to separate it from Stalinism? How about I'm just reaching for fact? How about Marx as an interesting political philosopher? As for my criticism of America today, I take it as a citizen's duty, not just prerogative. Bet you do too. I reserve my contempt for the current administration...!

I don't think that there is any need to back you, Tartarin, on this subject. (Any encyclopædia/dictionary can show up that Stalinism is different to communism.)

hiama, thank you for your reasoned reply. We are in a great position right now to stay at peace and increase (peacefully) the pressure on Saddam. No bullets, no bombs, no death. Keep building pressure as the UN intends to do. If we have 100,000 inspectors in the country will one person per one factory, one person per one scientist - I say keep on keeping on. If we get one assassin to kill one dictator, I say do it.

But to go to war for peace. That is the dumbest oxmoronic statement I have ever heard only logically capable of this unPresident.

It is sad that anyone would want to kill people, probably more than Saddam ever killed by multiples. Thanks again hiama!

Links to Europe, Mexico, South Korea et al., Tres? Can I send you an American Airlines sched? Aside from those three? Iraq was an ally (we armed Iraq -- yes, the very same bio weapons etc.). Russia was an ally as indeed was the Soviet Union at one point. Is it possible we use people and then throw them away? Naw. Not us!