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The US, The UN and Iraq

 
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Feb, 2003 12:58 pm
Hmm now then where did I hear phrases like "evil empire", "axis of evil", "you're either with us or with the terrorists" ? Not much room to manoever there, or shades of grey.
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Kara
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Feb, 2003 01:01 pm
Quote:
It may be a hopeful sign that increasing numbers of influential talking heads and others with a public forum have begun to deconstruct Bush's and Powell's and Ashcroft's and Rumsfeld's and others' "convictions." That, at least, is a start.


Tartarin, each day in the newspapers I see more voices of doubt and dissent, and many who just say Wait. Is it possible that this war engine will run out of fuel?
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Feb, 2003 01:04 pm
please read that manoeuvre
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trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Feb, 2003 01:41 pm
Kara wrote:
Tartarin, each day in the newspapers I see more voices of doubt and dissent, and many who just say Wait. Is it possible that this war engine will run out of fuel?

Strange... each day I read of more and more countries backing the US position, more doubts concerns and breaches being revealed by Blix, ... heck, even Saddam seems to be coming around, having agreed to U2 overflights. We must be reading different papers. Very Happy

I guess this just shows that we each focus on the news that suits our point of view. That's not to say that either of us are unaware of other voices and points of view, just that our own personal bias does color what we take in.
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Feb, 2003 02:33 pm
Hmmmm---just last night I heard a liberal author admit there is conservative movement in the U.S right now which became clearly evident with the last election and the Liberals have no answer.

Guess I just listen to different "talking heads".
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Feb, 2003 02:38 pm
I would be rather surprised if any "liberal" were at any time unwilling to admit to the existence of "conservatives." I guess i don't understand the direction of that remark. As for the last election, i am reminded of Senator Hiakawa's remark at the time of the Panama Canal debate: "We stole it, fair and square, we should keep it." I'm thinking the Repubs will keep the White House for as long as they can.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Feb, 2003 02:45 pm
Set, It's either Haikawa or Hayakawa. Wink c.i.
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Feb, 2003 02:49 pm
I predict the next election will emphatically refute all the blather about anyone stealing anything and show it for what it is ---a mythical fantasy.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Feb, 2003 03:01 pm
"Mythical fantasy" or not, it will remain the divide between liberals and conservatives for generations to come. c.i.
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trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Feb, 2003 03:15 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
"Mythical fantasy" or not, it will remain the divide between liberals and conservatives for generations to come. c.i.

I would reword* this as follows:

"It will remain a bone of contention for many liberals for years to come."

Historians have a tendency to get it right where the media and others fail. In the longer view, recent events will be shown for what they in fact were, and personal opinions that refuse to acknowledge facts will fade into obscurity.

(*I am in no way suggesting what you, CI, should be writing. I am simply using the mechanism of rewriting your comments as a convenient way to offer my point of view and highlight our difference on this issue. No offense intended!!!)
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Feb, 2003 03:30 pm
A relevant article. c.i.
***********************
The Wimps of War
February 11, 2003
By PAUL KRUGMAN

George W. Bush's admirers often describe his stand against
Saddam Hussein as "Churchillian." Yet his speeches about
Iraq - and for that matter about everything else - have
been notably lacking in promises of blood, toil, tears and
sweat. Has there ever before been a leader who combined so
much martial rhetoric with so few calls for sacrifice?

Or to put it a bit differently: Is Mr. Bush, for all his
tough talk, unwilling to admit that going to war involves
some hard choices? Unfortunately, that would be all too
consistent with his governing style. And though you don't
hear much about it in the U.S. media, a lack of faith in
Mr. Bush's staying power - a fear that he will wimp out in
the aftermath of war, that he won't do what is needed to
rebuild Iraq - is a large factor in the growing rift
between Europe and the United States.

Why might Europeans not trust Mr. Bush to follow through
after an Iraq war? One answer is that they've been mightily
unimpressed with his follow-through in Afghanistan. Another
is that they've noticed that promises the Bush
administration makes when it needs military allies tend to
become inoperative once the shooting stops - just ask
General Musharraf about Pakistan's textile exports.

But more broadly, they may have noticed something that is
becoming apparent to more and more people here: the Bush
administration's consistent unwillingness to take
responsibility for solving difficult problems. When the
going gets tough, it seems, Mr. Bush changes the subject.

Last week's budget is a perfect example. The deterioration
in the long-run budget outlook is nothing short of
catastrophic; at this point a fiscal train wreck appears
inevitable once the baby boomers retire in large numbers.
Should we be reconsidering those tax cuts? Should Mr. Bush
tell the American people how he plans to cut Social
Security and Medicare?

The White House has an easier solution. First, it has
conveniently decided that budget deficits are not a bad
thing after all. Second, it has stopped making long-run
projections, and now looks only five years ahead. And even
those projections don't include any allowance for the cost
of an Iraq war.

Which brings us back to the war. Mr. Bush apparently
regards Saddam Hussein as a pushover; he believes advisers
who tell him that an Iraq war will be quick and easy - a
couple of days of shock and awe, followed by a victory
parade. Maybe. But even if it does turn out that way, is
this administration ready for the long, difficult, quite
possibly bloody task of rebuilding Iraq?

The Europeans don't think so. In fact, they view Mr. Bush's
obsession with invading Iraq as a demonstration of why he
can't be trusted to deal with what comes next.

In the United States it is taken as axiomatic that America
is a country that really faces up to evildoers, while those
sniveling old Europeans just don't have the nerve. And the
U.S. commentariat, with few exceptions, describes Mr. Bush
as a decisive leader who really gets to grips with
problems. Tough-guy rhetoric aside, this image seems to be
based on the following policy - as opposed to political -
achievements: (1) The overthrow of the Taliban; (2) . . .
any suggestions for 2?

Meanwhile, here's how it looks from Paris: France was
willing to put ground troops at risk - and lose a number of
soldiers - in the former Yugoslavia; we weren't. The U.S.
didn't make good on its promises to provide security and
aid to post-Taliban Afghanistan. Those Americans, they are
very brave when it comes to bombing from 10,000 meters, but
they expect other people to clean up the mess they make,
no?

And French officials have made no secret of their belief
that Mr. Bush wants to invade Iraq not because he is truly
convinced that Saddam Hussein is a menace, but because he'd
rather have an easy victory in a conventional war than
stick to the hard task of tracking down stateless
terrorists. I'm not saying they're right; I have no idea
what Mr. Bush is really thinking. But you can understand
their point of view.

In the days ahead, as the diplomatic confrontation between
the Bush administration and the Europeans escalates,
remember this: Viewed from the outside, Mr. Bush's America
does not look like a regime whose promises you can trust.


http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/11/opinion/11KRUG.html?ex=1045996406&ei=1&en=05837395f32f59d7
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Feb, 2003 03:31 pm
Update:
Bin Laden Tapehttp://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/nm/20030211/amdf47.jpg


This could change the direction of several current discussions.



timber
0 Replies
 
cobalt
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Feb, 2003 03:32 pm
Final Look at this thread - getting a bit more "heated" shall we say? I am on the road and will check in every two days or so. Is it time to split this thread into a second part? It comes up "slower" for dial-up folks.

Peace, Love, and Hugs,
cobalt
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Feb, 2003 03:40 pm
US: "Sounds like Bin Laden"


Quote:
Top Stories - Reuters

U.S. Intelligence Analysts Believe Tape Bin Laden
34 minutes ago Add Top Stories - Reuters to My Yahoo!



WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. intelligence analysts believe the latest tape broadcast by al Jazeera was the voice of al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden (news - web sites), a U.S. official said on Tuesday.



Hmmmmmm?




timber
0 Replies
 
perception
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Feb, 2003 03:44 pm
C.I.

Typical Krugman rhetoric and inuendo---actually I think Krugman has mellowed----he was absolutely obsessed with bringing the Bush administration to it's knees. Just another example of an economics professor who should stick to his discipline---but then he coundn't make it there either.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Feb, 2003 03:50 pm
jperc, I'm usually very skeptical about one time posts, but seeing it was in the NYT, I thought it might have a bit more credence. c.i.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Feb, 2003 04:04 pm
http://www.speeds-cartoons.com/archives/toons36/dead-or-alive.jpg
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Feb, 2003 04:10 pm
A very relevant article c.i.!
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Feb, 2003 04:10 pm
BillW, That wanted poster is out of date. The reward is now $25,000,000. Wink c.i.
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Feb, 2003 04:11 pm
It's obvious that the information regarding the reward of $25 million for UBL's head has not been properly translated for the backward regions of Pakistan.
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