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The US, The UN and Iraq

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Feb, 2003 01:41 am
Following perception's line ....

Poll: US seen as the main threat to world peace by Europeans?
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Kara
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Feb, 2003 08:30 am
preception, quod erat demonstrandum....LOL
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Feb, 2003 08:46 am
This will probably be my last contribution to this thread before the killing starts or special branch arrest me, or I check into the funny farm, so I would like to spell out where I stand on this bloody war.

I'm not against war per se. I hate it, but I'm not a pacifist. In certain circumstances I would agree that Saddam and his regime must be removed by force, just as I would favour removing Robert Mugabe in Zimbabwe. But those circumstances have not yet arisen.

The lead agency in the authorisation of force must be the United Nations. It cannot be right that Britain is led into war against another member of the UN which poses no direct or immediate threat to us, at the behest of an ally - however close - whose reasons for embarking on a military adventure are at best not clear, or at worst dubious, ill considered and dangerous to our interests.

Hans Blix does not report to me. Neither does he report to Donald Rumsfeld. He reports to the security council of the UN. Therefore let his report be considered and voted on by the UN.

It was clear from the outset that Bush did not want to go the UN route. Military planning for an attack on Iraq has been on going for over a year. Bush, Rumsfeld, Daniel Perle, Paul Wolfovitz et al have made it abundantly clear that it is their policy to remove Saddam. For them, any UN endorsement is peripheral and not a necessary or even a central component of their plan. This war as we all know, is going ahead. In fact it does not matter what Blix reports or how the UN votes, because the war plans are proceeding to timetable, avoiding the hot weather, and finishing in time for the US primary elections. Blix has been denied intelligence by the US to enable him to do his job more efficiently. From the very outset, the US intimated that he was not up to doing the job. Colin Powell presented a glitzy show last week, long on impact, and short on substance. When Jacques Chirac says there is no definitive proof that Saddam possesses WMD (which is true, there isn't, or if there is, the UN hasn't been allowed to see it) Bush effectively calls him a liar. Its pretty obvious that the US will use the UN while it suits, but will ignore the security council when it doesn't suit.

Nevertheless, we are told by our PM that it is likely the council will pass a further resolution authorising the use of force. Fine, let them do that. But without that resolution, military action is illegal and in my opinion, must be opposed.

If the US and UK proceed regardless, I shall support our troops in the field - that goes without saying - but lobby at every opportunity, no matter how the war develops, that this illegal action is not in Britain's interests and that our forces must be withdrawn at the earliest moment.

'bye for now and have a nice war. Very Happy
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Feb, 2003 08:59 am
Steve writes..(in part...)

The lead agency in the authorisation of force must be the United Nations. It cannot be right that Britain is led into war against another member of the UN which poses no direct or immediate threat to us, at the behest of an ally - however close - whose reasons for embarking on a military adventure are at best not clear, or at worst dubious, ill considered and dangerous to our interests.......


....This war as we all know, is going ahead.

...Nevertheless, we are told by our PM that it is likely the council will pass a further resolution authorising the use of force. Fine, let them do that. But without that resolution, military action is illegal and in my opinion, must be opposed.

If the US and UK proceed regardless, I shall support our troops in the field - that goes without saying - but lobby at every opportunity, no matter how the war develops, that this illegal action is not in Britain's interests and that our forces must be withdrawn at the earliest moment....
Quote:


Article in NYTimes today notes that your PM is losing the support of the country over this issue.

I agree completely with your analysis of the situation. This war will happen because Bush wants it to happen and, thus, all attempts at containment, agreement, or detente with Iraq are a show.

The failure is one of imagination.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Feb, 2003 09:36 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

The lead agency in the authorisation of force must be the United Nations. It cannot be right that Britain is led into war against another member of the UN which poses no direct or immediate threat to us, at the behest of an ally - however close - whose reasons for embarking on a military adventure are at best not clear, or at worst dubious, ill considered and dangerous to our interests.

Hans Blix does not report to me. Neither does he report to Donald Rumsfeld. He reports to the security council of the UN. Therefore let his report be considered and voted on by the UN.

It was clear from the outset that Bush did not want to go the UN route. Military planning for an attack on Iraq has been on going for over a year. Bush, Rumsfeld, Daniel Perle, Paul Wolfovitz et al have made it abundantly clear that it is their policy to remove Saddam. For them, any UN endorsement is peripheral and not a necessary or even a central component of their plan. This war as we all know, is going ahead. In fact it does not matter what Blix reports or how the UN votes, because the war plans are proceeding to timetable, avoiding the hot weather, and finishing in time for the US primary elections. Blix has been denied intelligence by the US to enable him to do his job more efficiently. From the very outset, the US intimated that he was not up to doing the job. Colin Powell presented a glitzy show last week, long on impact, and short on substance. When Jacques Chirac says there is no definitive proof that Saddam possesses WMD (which is true, there isn't, or if there is, the UN hasn't been allowed to see it) Bush effectively calls him a liar. Its pretty obvious that the US will use the UN while it suits, but will ignore the security council when it doesn't suit.
Very Happy


There is overwhelming evidence to show that the Bush administration has no respect for law or the democratic process -- domestically or in foreign affairs. In this discussion we are focused on the prospect of war, as we should be. But I'm not sure that Americans shouldn't be more concerned with the overarching problem that the administration sees itself as entitled to do whatever it takes to get its way.

To date it has trampled on civil rights, it has torn up agreements with foreign nations, it shows no respect for the truth, it respects only its own imperial desires. The prospect of an invasion of Iraq has our attention right now, though yes, containment was working -- and even if it weren't, there are other ways of disarming Iraq without going to war. The prospect of violence on a much larger scale is just around the corner. I don't see how we can avoid the conclusion that war spreading well beyond Iraq's borders is what the administration wants -- they are working very hard to attain it. I don't see how we can avoid believing that their goal is domination.

Before you write that off as overly dramatic and presumptuous, please review the train of events -- the modus operandi -- leading up to this moment. The pot which is about to boil over has been on the back burner for years, but let's just start with presidential campaign 2000.
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trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Feb, 2003 09:37 am
I understand that Saddam has now agreed to allow U2 spy planes (no, not the band) overfly Iraq, something he has not allowed before.

Does anyone think for a second Saddam would be doing this, that we would even have inspectors on the ground in Iraq, if not for the US presenting Saddam with a clear and present danger of punishment for non-compliance?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Feb, 2003 09:44 am
Well, Steve, your new home doesn't look that bad at all!
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38804000/jpg/_38804747_deadalus300.jpg
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Kara
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Feb, 2003 09:50 am
trespassers will wrote:
I understand that Saddam has now agreed to allow U2 spy planes (no, not the band) overfly Iraq, something he has not allowed before.

Does anyone think for a second Saddam would be doing this, that we would even have inspectors on the ground in Iraq, if not for the US presenting Saddam with a clear and present danger of punishment for non-compliance?
Quote:



Point taken. He did this without having his country bombed. He could be contained indefinitely. But we will not allow him to be.
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trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Feb, 2003 10:08 am
Kara wrote:

Point taken. He did this without having his country bombed. He could be contained indefinitely. But we will not allow him to be.

Perhaps. I am still cautiously optimistic (now bordering on wistful fancy, I admit) that this has been the plan all along; to present Saddam with such an absolute assurance of war that he would do anything--up to and including handing over the keys to Iraq to a replacement government--to avoid his assured destruction.

I am heartened, as are others here (I think), at growing reports that there will likely be a new resolution sanctioning military action against Iraq. While I do not agree with the assertion some seem to make (maybe I misinterpret them?) that the US should never, can never, act alone to safeguard US interests, I would prefer that if we go in, we have the support of the UN.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Feb, 2003 10:09 am
Hi Walter, thats what I thought when I moved in.

Take another picture, I'll wave from my window (far block top right). Just going now to write something on a sheet....
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Feb, 2003 10:12 am
If I may, I would like to trouble you all with my idea of perspective relative to some of our history. Lincoln is thought of and revered as possibly the greatest president in our history----it could be said that he killed 600,000 men(this is the total number of men killed in the US civil war) Not 246 as Bush 41 killed in the first gulf war, or zero that Clinton killed in Kosovo(we are viewed as cowards by the French for bombing from 15000ft because they did not have the courage to put their troops in harm's way). Lincoln did not fight the civil war to free the slaves---he fought the war to preserve the union---freeing the slaves was a fringe benefit. Had he not preserved the union, Pennsilvania might now be a German colony.
Louisianna might be a French colony. These United States might have become another Europe with many little countries all bickering over anything and everything.

IMO, if CNN and body bags had been the venue of the day as it is now, Lincoln most probably would have been lynched after the first battle. He would have gone down in History as a madman, not a Hero. But yet he killed 600,000 men and became a hero. Lincoln was a man of vision surely, but most of all he was a man of conviction. Surely that war could have been averted but it was not. Once it started there was no turning back---think what would have happened had he lost his conviction when he saw the carnage on the battlefield? This country would not exist. I believe I am correct in saying that Great Brittain was waiting to attack us in our weakened condition. Any number of a circumstances could have changed the course of history had Lincoln lost his conviction. He did not and now his is immortalized.

In times of great peril, IMO it is best to reduce all the factors to black and white---good or evil. Shades of grey only tend to confuse the issues. I will go with the man who has the conviction.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Feb, 2003 10:17 am
Steve

But that magnificent view over to Portsmouth ...
And what has been good enough for sailors should suit subjects damn sure!
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trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Feb, 2003 10:27 am
perception - Excellent comments. I do think keeping a little grey in our outlook is always healthy, but I agree that we get lost in the infinite shades of grey to our perile.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Feb, 2003 10:32 am
perception wrote:
In times of great peril, IMO it is best to reduce all the factors to black and white---good or evil. Shades of grey only tend to confuse the issues. I will go with the man who has the conviction.


So will that be Bush or Saddam?
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Feb, 2003 10:36 am
After 12 years of lies by Saddam, your skewed point of view would no doubt pick Saddam.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Feb, 2003 10:38 am
Perception, when those 600,000 Americans died, many died for Jefferson Davis, not Lincoln. Futhermore, many of those who died marched off to war singing The Battle Hymn of the Republic, or the more popular John Brown's Body sung to the same tune. This distinction is vital, in that Mr. Lincoln's soldiers were his soldiers indeed, they voted for him in 1864 by absentee ballot. Certainly there were many opposed to the war, usually for the simple reason that they personally did not want to go in harm's way. But by and large, Lincoln's constituency supported that war; many who did not vote for him, and cannot therefore properly be called his constituency supported that war effort nonetheless. This thread ougth to be good evidence of a significant difference: Bush does not have the support of the nation in anything like the degree which obtained in 1861. It has been observed that had there been television in 1862 at Shiloh, the war would have been over shortly thereafter. I don't know that this is true--but even if it were, Lincoln was in a totally different situation in 1861. Customs officers in Charleston, South Carolina had been taken into custody. Batteries had been erected to shell Fort Sumpter, and those batteries were turned on Star of the West when she tried to resupply the garrison. An attempt was made to seize the naval station at Pensacola, which was only thwarted due to the quick action of a naval lieutenant leading sailors and marines. Constitutionally, Lincoln had a right to call upon Congress to call up the militia to "suppress insurrections" (Article I, section 8), and had the power in his own right to use United States troops and any militia called into service by Congress (Article II, section 2) to protect federal officials acting in the lawful exercise of their duties. No such case applies to Bush.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Feb, 2003 10:40 am
Nice little quote I bumped into this morning...

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president...or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong...is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
--Theodore Roosevelt
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Feb, 2003 10:54 am
You seem to think that Mr. Bush's soldiers won't vote for him by absentee ballot-----why don't you ask a few?
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trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Feb, 2003 10:56 am
So far, I would draw a closer parallel between our current situation and President Kennedy and the Cuban Missile Crisis. Of course, if the war begins tomorrow, all that changes...

Oh, and I completely agree with the quote you offered, blatham.
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Feb, 2003 11:02 am
TW

I disaggree---that was Brinkmanship with a capital "B". Kennedy was dealing with world extinction period. Comparing that with now is really "over the top" IMO, TW.
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