xingu wrote:real life wrote:Alright then, that is why I told au1929 that describing the founders as 'deists' is inaccurate.
Numerous accounts of the founders engaging in prayers to God for wisdom and guidance, victory in the war, unity among their countrymen, protection of their freedoms, safety of their families etc are wholly incongruous with the behavior of deists.
Do you agree?
How do you know what they were praying for?
Their own writings, in many cases.
neologist wrote:xingu wrote:real life wrote:Alright then, that is why I told au1929 that describing the founders as 'deists' is inaccurate.
Numerous accounts of the founders engaging in prayers to God for wisdom and guidance, victory in the war, unity among their countrymen, protection of their freedoms, safety of their families etc are wholly incongruous with the behavior of deists.
Do you agree?
How do you know what they were praying for?
To be a Christian you have to believe that Christ was a God, born of a virgin, not a mere human. The FF in question did not believe that.
So would you call them Christians?
Define 'christian.'
I did, didn't you read what I posted?
real life wrote:xingu wrote:real life wrote:Alright then, that is why I told au1929 that describing the founders as 'deists' is inaccurate.
Numerous accounts of the founders engaging in prayers to God for wisdom and guidance, victory in the war, unity among their countrymen, protection of their freedoms, safety of their families etc are wholly incongruous with the behavior of deists.
Do you agree?
How do you know what they were praying for?
Their own writings, in many cases.
Whose writings? We not talking about all FFs. We're talking about Franklin, Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Washington and Paine.
BTW, lets say you have a FF that does not believe Christ was God and believed in the the efficacy of prayer. What label would you put on him?
I ask this because the number of beliefs are infinite. People create their own Gods and beliefs. So it's very possible to have someone who believes in the efficacy of prayer but not in Christ being a Saviour.
By difinition then he would not be a Deist or Christian.
Is there a label for such?
Spiritualist?
Washington, Adams, and Madison all maintained membership in established Christian churches. They attended when they could. Franklin was a skeptic, and Jefferson wrote his own bowdlerized version of the Bible. I'm not sure what Paine's religious beliefs were, but he certainly was a proto-Communist and professional agitator/revolutionary. Rather good records are available regarding the religious affiliations of the Founding Fathers, and virtually to a man they belonged to established Christian churches and were devout, at least in their pronouncements and public conduct.
Asherman wrote:Washington, Adams, and Madison all maintained membership in established Christian churches. They attended when they could. Franklin was a skeptic, and Jefferson wrote his own bowdlerized version of the Bible. I'm not sure what Paine's religious beliefs were, but he certainly was a proto-Communist and professional agitator/revolutionary. Rather good records are available regarding the religious affiliations of the Founding Fathers, and virtually to a man they belonged to established Christian churches and were devout, at least in their pronouncements and public conduct.
Going to church does not make them Christian. Church served as a gathering point where, after services, politics and business were conducted. I think a truer indication of belief is their private correspondence rather than their public show.
In that case, many labeled Christian today aren't really because they hold beliefs in great conflict with their churches official doctrines. Since the Reformation the variety of belief even within the most straight-laced congregations has varied widely. By all means refer to the private writings of the Founding Fathers, and you will still find that they were overwhelmingly believers in the Christian variety of Abrahamic religion.
Isn't the US a christian nation?
Here in Europe we get the impression that the US us ruled by christian fundamentalists, and that everyone else belongs to minorities of various sorts.
In fact, the only country in the world with more religious fanatics than the US, or so we are told, is Turkey.
Cyracuz wrote:Here in Europe we get the impression .....
....... so we are told.....
Your erroneous view of the US is easily explained by this.
Asherman wrote: Rather good records are available regarding the religious affiliations of the Founding Fathers, and virtually to a man they belonged to established Christian churches and were devout, at least in their pronouncements and public conduct.
Would you mind posting a link to the records showing this, or to a book containing them?
Cyracuz wrote:In fact, the only country in the world with more religious fanatics than the US, or so we are told, is Turkey.
Would you define "fanatic"? Apparently one need not blow himself up for his religious beliefs to meet your standard. Strong faith? Perhaps weekly church attendance is sufficient?
FYI
Hamilton, for example, was an agnostic and deist for most of his life, who regarded attendance at Episcopal services as a social obligation rather than a devotional occasion. At the Constitutional Convention, when Franklin (of all people) proposed that the delegates invite a minister to bless their deliberations with a prayer, Hamilton observed that "I see no reason to call in foreign aid." But in the last few years of his life, after his eldest son was killed in a duel defending his father's honor, Hamilton became much more devoutly Christian, a decision that probably led to his death on the plains of Weehawken when he chose to waste his shot at Aaron Burr.
Jefferson was generally regarded as an atheist by most New England clergy and newspaper editors. (The president of Yale College once threatened to revoke the degree of any Yale graduate who voted for that man from Monticello.) In response to these attacks Jefferson prepared his own edition of the New Testament (still on sale at Monticello). But his correspondence with British Unitarians at the time clearly shows that Jefferson did not believe in the divinity of Jesus, but rather regarded him (or Him) as a wonderful role model, much like Socrates.
Adams began as a Congregationalist, though a staunch opponent of New Light evangelicalism, then ended up a Unitarian. His endorsement of a religious establishment in Massachusetts was rooted in political rather than religious convictions, a conservative belief that social change was always best when done gradually. In the famous correspondence with Jefferson in their twilight years, both men envisioned heaven as a place where they could continue their argument about the true meaning of the American Revolution and Adams could accost Benjamin Franklin for his depravities and inflated reputation. On the question of life everlasting Adams embraced a version of Pascal's Wager. To wit, one might as well presume it is true, because if it proves incorrect one will never know it. Again, the Adams view of Christian doctrine about everlasting life was always driven by concerns about its function as a brake on human crime and misbehavior. "If it can ever be proved," he noted near the end, "that there is no life ever-after, my advice to every man, woman, and child would be to take opium."
, George Washington always believed that American victory in the War for Independence was, as he said, "a standing miracle," guided by other-worldly forces that he referred to as "providence" or "destiny." He seldom used the word "God." I regard him as a pantheist rather than a deist because he believed these other-worldly forces, whatever we called them, had earthly presences. Like Hamilton, he regarded his attendance at Episcopal services as a social obligation. In his last hours no ministers or chaplains were invited to his bedside. He died as a Roman stoic more than a Christian believer.
Two final points. The common conviction that bound together most of the Founders was the belief in the complete separation of church and state. As products of the Enlightenment, they shared Diderot's vision of a heavenly city on earth where the last priest would be strangled with the entrails of the last king. This was a radical doctrine at the time, and even now in Iraq we can see that it is an idea yet to be regarded as, shall we say, self-evident. Let me acknowledge that it was easier to implement in the United States than elsewhere, because the vast majority of the populace were practicing Christians of various denominations that shared core values, and also because there was a century-old tradition of religious toleration generated by the multiplicity of sects. That said, it seems to me that the central legacy of the Founding Fathers was a "hands off" policy towards any specific religious doctrine. No faith was to be favored.
xingu wrote:neologist wrote:xingu wrote:real life wrote:Alright then, that is why I told au1929 that describing the founders as 'deists' is inaccurate.
Numerous accounts of the founders engaging in prayers to God for wisdom and guidance, victory in the war, unity among their countrymen, protection of their freedoms, safety of their families etc are wholly incongruous with the behavior of deists.
Do you agree?
How do you know what they were praying for?
To be a Christian you have to believe that Christ was a God, born of a virgin, not a mere human. The FF in question did not believe that.
So would you call them Christians?
Define 'christian.'
I did, didn't you read what I posted?
So, that's your definition?
That's IT?
au1929 wrote:FYI
Hamilton, for example, was an agnostic and deist for most of his life, who regarded attendance at Episcopal services as a social obligation rather than a devotional occasion. At the Constitutional Convention, when Franklin (of all people) proposed that the delegates invite a minister to bless their deliberations with a prayer, Hamilton observed that "I see no reason to call in foreign aid." But in the last few years of his life, after his eldest son was killed in a duel defending his father's honor, Hamilton became much more devoutly Christian, a decision that probably led to his death on the plains of Weehawken when he chose to waste his shot at Aaron Burr.
Jefferson was generally regarded as an atheist by most New England clergy and newspaper editors. (The president of Yale College once threatened to revoke the degree of any Yale graduate who voted for that man from Monticello.) In response to these attacks Jefferson prepared his own edition of the New Testament (still on sale at Monticello). But his correspondence with British Unitarians at the time clearly shows that Jefferson did not believe in the divinity of Jesus, but rather regarded him (or Him) as a wonderful role model, much like Socrates.
Adams began as a Congregationalist, though a staunch opponent of New Light evangelicalism, then ended up a Unitarian. His endorsement of a religious establishment in Massachusetts was rooted in political rather than religious convictions, a conservative belief that social change was always best when done gradually. In the famous correspondence with Jefferson in their twilight years, both men envisioned heaven as a place where they could continue their argument about the true meaning of the American Revolution and Adams could accost Benjamin Franklin for his depravities and inflated reputation. On the question of life everlasting Adams embraced a version of Pascal's Wager. To wit, one might as well presume it is true, because if it proves incorrect one will never know it. Again, the Adams view of Christian doctrine about everlasting life was always driven by concerns about its function as a brake on human crime and misbehavior. "If it can ever be proved," he noted near the end, "that there is no life ever-after, my advice to every man, woman, and child would be to take opium."
, George Washington always believed that American victory in the War for Independence was, as he said, "a standing miracle," guided by other-worldly forces that he referred to as "providence" or "destiny." He seldom used the word "God." I regard him as a pantheist rather than a deist because he believed these other-worldly forces, whatever we called them, had earthly presences. Like Hamilton, he regarded his attendance at Episcopal services as a social obligation. In his last hours no ministers or chaplains were invited to his bedside. He died as a Roman stoic more than a Christian believer.
Two final points. The common conviction that bound together most of the Founders was the belief in the complete separation of church and state. As products of the Enlightenment, they shared Diderot's vision of a heavenly city on earth where the last priest would be strangled with the entrails of the last king. This was a radical doctrine at the time, and even now in Iraq we can see that it is an idea yet to be regarded as, shall we say, self-evident. Let me acknowledge that it was easier to implement in the United States than elsewhere, because the vast majority of the populace were practicing Christians of various denominations that shared core values, and also because there was a century-old tradition of religious toleration generated by the multiplicity of sects. That said, it seems to me that the central legacy of the Founding Fathers was a "hands off" policy towards any specific religious doctrine. No faith was to be favored.
I see.
So, your opinion of why some of the FF attended church, or the opinion of some of the ministers who lived contemporaneously is what determines if these men were deists or not?
Sorry. I'll go with what they said of their own views, not with what you (or another) think were their motives.
I stand by my position that very few of the FF would qualify as 'deists', and wishing they were doesn't make it so.
Now if you wanna provide evidence for your odd claim..................
Tico wrote:Would you define "fanatic"? Apparently one need not blow himself up for his religious beliefs to meet your standard. Strong faith? Perhaps weekly church attendance is sufficient?
Refusal to believe in established scientific fact because it contradicts you faith puts you in the fanatic category in my opinion. And nearly half the population of the US does just this by the info I've seen.
Isn't this "christian heritage week"?
Cyracuz wrote:Tico wrote:Would you define "fanatic"? Apparently one need not blow himself up for his religious beliefs to meet your standard. Strong faith? Perhaps weekly church attendance is sufficient?
Refusal to believe in established scientific fact because it contradicts you faith puts you in the fanatic category in my opinion. And nearly half the population of the US does just this by the info I've seen.
Yes. And some of the more amusing arguments made are by those who try to "reverse engineer" their religion to fit the facts.
"Oh, well, evolution exists but it was guided by the hand of god."
Laughable. Amusing. But laughable.
no, what's odd is the idea that evolution proves there's no god.
frankly, god is a non-issue to me. i don't think people need to believe in god. ever since evolution became a mainstream topic, there's been a threat that it disproves god in the minds of believers, that evolution requires or assists atheism, that evolution must be argued against.
there's no reason god couldn't have set evolution in motion. we don't know much about god, and the idea that we learn how god created the world from reading genesis literally is nonsense.
regardless of whether the story is true- it is a *story,* not a scientific or historical account. the creation/evolution dichotomy is completely invented by man, and treating it as a relgious issue misses out on both science and biblical understanding.
i applaud people that can resolve the two, rather than laugh at them. for people that don't believe in a god, they do at least have a worthwhile, scientific theory that doesn't *require* a god, but it doesn't exclude one. i don't expect science to deal with gods, until there is scientific evidence for one. so far, there isn't any- i don't mind that at all, but i'm glad there are believers that are bright enough to embrace science. you shouldn't laugh at people for making progress, just because you think you're ahead of them.
Look around. I think you guys are in the wrong thread.
Yeah, well, the Evolution thread is in the wrong place, but I don't hear you complaining.
