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Should the US be a Christian nation?

 
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Oct, 2007 09:33 am
Don't know much about the IRS angle but I would bet there have been and will be a lot of politicians giving political speeches in churches on Sundays.

BTW I think giving a speech at a church does not violate the church's tax status so long as the church does not promote politicians or politics. Any politician can give a stump speech at a church. That's tradition in American politics.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Oct, 2007 09:34 am
real life wrote:
Thomas wrote:
Could you please be more specific? Could you please provide a quote where xingu takes issue with conservatives for invocations of religion comparable to Obama's and Clinton's?


Did you skip the article xingu posted just one page back trashing John McCain?

No, I didn't. This article does not take exception to any religious invocation John McCain made -- comparable to Obama's and Clinton's or not. By contrast, the article rebuts a specific historical claim John McCain made: that "the Constitution established the United States of America as a Christian nation."

By citing this text, approvingly I assume, xingu joins its author in disagreeing with McCain's false historical claim. It says nothing about xingu's position on speaking in churches, bolstering moral arguments with Bible verses, and the like.

As it happens, xingu may well disagree with these things too -- but posting this article wasn't evidence that he does.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Oct, 2007 09:37 am
real life wrote:
xingu wrote:
Quote:
My point is that conservatives are often trashed for it, while liberals are given a pass.


If conservatives are critized for it it's because they use religion to promote attacks on foreign countries (Iran and Iraq), anti homosexual agendas (hate promotion), and trying to insert CC religious dogmas into public schools (Creationism); among other things.

I think Hillary and Obama also have a Christian agenda; to help those who need help and not use religion to promote wars, hate and to destroy the wall that seperates government and religion.


So only conservatives violate the wall between church and state by advocating policies that they think God would approve of.

When liberals advocate policies that THEY think God would approve of, THAT doesn't violate the wall between church and state.

Right?


As usual you are getting thinga all screwed up. Have to talk to you in real simple terms so you can understand; that is if you want to understand.

Inserting religious dogma, such as Creationism, in public schools is a violation of the seperation of church and state.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Oct, 2007 10:13 am
xingu wrote:
real life wrote:
xingu wrote:
Quote:
My point is that conservatives are often trashed for it, while liberals are given a pass.


If conservatives are critized for it it's because they use religion to promote attacks on foreign countries (Iran and Iraq), anti homosexual agendas (hate promotion), and trying to insert CC religious dogmas into public schools (Creationism); among other things.

I think Hillary and Obama also have a Christian agenda; to help those who need help and not use religion to promote wars, hate and to destroy the wall that seperates government and religion.


So only conservatives violate the wall between church and state by advocating policies that they think God would approve of.

When liberals advocate policies that THEY think God would approve of, THAT doesn't violate the wall between church and state.

Right?


As usual you are getting thinga all screwed up. Have to talk to you in real simple terms so you can understand; that is if you want to understand.

Inserting religious dogma, such as Creationism, in public schools is a violation of the seperation of church and state.


Let's broaden the discussion to include more issues.

ANY definition of what is right and what is wrong is likely addressed by most religions.

So, if government schools address moral/behavioral issues to either encourage or discourage acceptance of such, they are likely promoting something that some religions favor and others do not.

Do you agree?
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Oct, 2007 10:51 am
No
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Oct, 2007 11:00 am
Can you elaborate on why you disagree?
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xingu
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Oct, 2007 11:05 am
real life wrote:
Can you elaborate on why you disagree?


Quit playing your childish little games with me. You know what I'm speaking of so don't try to be cute and create a new issue.

Play your dumb games with someone else.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Oct, 2007 11:33 am
xingu wrote:
real life wrote:
Can you elaborate on why you disagree?


You know what I'm speaking of


Yes, I do understand what you're saying. Out of both sides of your mouth.
0 Replies
 
hankarin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Oct, 2007 05:43 pm
tinygiraffe wrote:
by your definition, i'd like to know of any christian denomination that isn't chauvinistic. it doesn't exist.

for that matter, the biggest chauvinist in the history of christianity was paul. when he got bored of being a jewish chauvinist against christians, he became a christian chauvinist against jews. it's all in his chauvinistic letters, which he wrote to anyone and everyone that wasn't a christian.

Quote:
extreme and unreasoning partisanship on behalf of a group to which one belongs, especially when the partisanship includes malice and hatred towards a rival group.


your defintion. and somehow i feel that paul did more for MALE chauvinism than any other single individual in history. others took part in it, but he made it "godly" - the son of a bitch. if you take him out of the bible, it's not half as "chauvinistic" a document as it is with him in it, until you translate it to english. hey, even the holy ghost used to be female!


Chauvanism postdates Christianity by about 1800 years, so how do you figure? All his angst your now carrying isn't healthy either. Lighten up a bit.
0 Replies
 
hankarin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Oct, 2007 05:58 pm
Re: pun not intended
tinygiraffe wrote:
we seem to be at cross purposes here, neo.

let's not get confused about whether i'm saying there are christians that love humanity or not. i'm saying i can't think of a single denomination (or any selection of varying ones) that embodies such a value overall.

in theory, it works out just fine. my experience with all denominations is a mountain of hypocrites, some of which are hopefully led by genuine human beings.

this is my experience with all religions. the genuinely kind people tend to get stepped on. hey, jesus himself got nailed to a piece of wood, right? that should tell you a bit about the lot that caring people get on this planet.

that's all i'm saying. they only reason christians get noticed around here more than others is, one, they really are trying to take over the country, which sucks- and two, there are much more of them in our daily lives than muslims for instance. whether you're pious or hypocrite is an issue with anyone, but moreso when you traipse around the planet demanding people join your numbers. it's not an attack on you or your religion, believe it or not- just a measure of realism.


Jesus avoided politics (John 6:15) and asked people if they wanted to be his followers. (John 1:43) True Christians by definition don't want the country, and don't demand anything from anyone.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Oct, 2007 10:44 am
0 Replies
 
Shapeless
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Oct, 2007 12:51 pm
Here's a review of Gary Willis's Head and Heart: American Christianities, courtesy of Tim Rutten and the L.A. Times:

How the tension between reason and emotion has shaped Christianity in America.
By Tim Rutten


October 10, 2007

The social historian and essayist Garry Wills is one of our most lucid public intellectuals, and no one working today writes more clearly or with greater authority on the intersection of religion and public life.

"Head and Heart: American Christianities" is a major contribution to the national debate over separation of church and state and ought to be read by anyone perplexed by the current interplay of religion and politics.

If you've wondered whether Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) was right when he said recently that America was founded as a "Christian nation," whether other Republican presidential candidates' views on evolution are electorally relevant, what effect Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton's Methodism has on her social views or whether a candidate's stand on abortion must determine your vote, then this is your book.

Wills' argument is that American history has been marked by an oscillation between Enlightenment and Evangelism -- between head and heart. He contends that the fruitful tension between these two poles contributed directly to the U.S. Constitution's single wholly original contribution to the political tradition: "disestablishment of the official creed and separation of church and state." It is precisely this innovative separation, Wills contends, that has allowed religion to flourish in America as it does nowhere else in the developed world. It's also why he finds the hostility toward separation evinced by George W. Bush and the religious right so alarming.

Beginning with the Puritans, whose views and turbulence he outlines with great clarity -- and at great length -- Wills moves through the Great Awakening of the early 18th century and the Enlightenment backlash that followed it. Speaking indirectly to the assertion of McCain and others about the Constitution's purportedly Christian origins, Wills points out that at the time of the founding, historians estimate that only about 17% of Americans professed formal religious adherence, a historic low point. The framers were deists, who believed in a divine providence knowable only through reason and experience and not prone to intervene in the affairs of men.

The reaction of the Great Awakening provided an American Unitarian boost that made Deism the religion of the educated class by the middle of the 18th century. Legal scholar William Lee Miller writes that the chief founders of the nation were all Deists -- he lists Washington, Franklin, John Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Hamilton and Paine, though many more leaders of the founding era could be added (Benjamin Rush, John Witherspoon, David Rittenhouse, Philip Freneau, Joel Barlow, Aaron Burr, James Wilson, Gouverneur Morris, Tench Coxe, to name some). Their agreement on the question of God crossed political and geographic lines. Federalist and Republican, North and South, an Adams and a Jefferson, a Hamilton and a Madison -- all were professed Deists.

Wills agrees with Perry Miller's contention that the founders were of a "liberality of spirit which must forever and properly remain a scandal to the rank and file of professing American Christians."

He points out that "elievers in America as a Christian nation do not much like Jefferson the Deist. But they like his Declaration of Independence because of its reference to 'the laws of nature and of nature's God.' Though this was not a legislative document, it is more useful to them than the supreme legislative document of the United States, the Constitution, which . . . does not mention God at all."

Even in his own time, "Jefferson attracted lightning," Wills writes. "That is why he is the person most talked about in the area of religious freedom. . . . Physically, Jefferson towered over the minute Madison by almost a foot. Symbolically, his stature is even greater. But this deflection of primary attention to Jefferson has given an advantage to those who oppose or minimize the separation of church and state, since Madison is the best defender of that constitutional innovation -- more consistent than Jefferson, more radical and more influential. Jefferson revered the First Amendment. Madison wrote it."

As president, Madison, like Jefferson, declined to proclaim days of prayer or fasting, was skeptical of military chaplaincies and even opposed allowing churches to incorporate themselves, reasoning that the grant of corporate status, with its protections and written bylaws, violated the separation principle.

Wills moves chronically through U.S. history, outlining the ebb and flow of enlightenment and evangelism through the decades and centuries, pausing throughout to provide thumbnail sketches of the significant personalities involved.

Eventually he comes to the Bush administration: "The right wing in American likes to think that the United States government was, at its inception, highly religious, specifically highly Christian, and -- and more to the point -- highly biblical." This was not true of that or any later government -- until 2000. Wills is particularly shrewd in delineating Karl Rove's part in bringing this about: While crediting the former White House advisor's mastery of electoral technologies, Wills argues that "his real skill lay in finding how to use religion as a political tool . . . . He shaped the hard core of the Republican Party around resentments religious people felt over abortion, homosexuality, Darwinism, women's liberation, pornography and school prayer . . . . Rove made the executive branch of the United States more openly and avowedly religious than it had ever been, though he had no discernible religious belief himself. His own indifference allowed him to be ecumenical in his appeal to Protestants, Catholics and Jews."

The Protestant wing of this coalition, Wills writes, was predisposed toward Bush, but Catholics were the big electoral prize. Pollsters have noted that Catholics who regularly assist at Mass are more socially conservative and open to GOP candidates. Moreover, Father Richard John Neuhaus, editor of the influential journal First Things and a convert from Lutheranism's evangelical wing, was a fixture in the Bush White House.

Considering abortion

As Wills points out, Rove made abortion the "linchpin" of his strategy to bring Catholics and evangelicals -- antagonists historically -- into accord within the Bush coalition. Other conservatives were quick to see abortion as common ground. William Kristol, the neoconservative editor of the Weekly Standard, wrote, "The truth is that abortion is today the bloody crossroads of American politics. It is where judicial liberation (from the Constitution), sexual liberation (from traditional mores), and women's liberation (from natural distinctions) come together. It is the focal point for liberalism's simultaneous assault on self-government, morals and nature."

Wills observes that what "made abortion so useful to Rove is the fact that it is the ultimate 'wedge issue,' because it is nonnegotiable" -- a position dictated by the commandment "Thou shalt not kill."

"Fair enough. But is abortion murder? Most people think not," Wills writes. What follows on that is perhaps the most lucid and relevantly learned concise discussion of abortion as a moral/theological question as you're likely to read anywhere. Once again, Wills' deep mastery of the primary sources and his respect for them as a believer himself lend his argument a compelling authority. He points out that Catholic opposition to abortion is a recent development.

"Abortion is not treated in the Ten Commandments -- or anywhere in Jewish Scripture. It is not treated in the Sermon on the Mount -- or anywhere in the New Testament. It is not treated in the early creeds. It is not treated in the early ecumenical councils." For that reason, Augustine, whose knowledge of both Jewish and Christian scriptures was encyclopedic, wrote, "I have not been able to discover in the accepted books of Scripture anything at all certain about the origin of the soul."

Similarly, Thomas Aquinas, "lacking scriptural guidance," relied upon Aristotle's natural philosophy. "So he denied that personhood arose at fertilization by the semen. God directly infuses the soul at the completion of human formation," Wills writes.

"Much of the debate over abortion is based on a misconception, that this is a religious issue, that the pro-life advocates are acting out of religious conviction. It is not a theological matter at all. There is no theological basis for either defending or condemning abortion. Even the popes have said that it is a matter of natural law, to be decided by natural reason. Well the pope is not the arbiter of natural law. Natural reason is."

Part of what lends "Head and Heart" its particular force and authority is that Wills' own encyclopedic knowledge of the separation question, of the history of religion in this country and of religious believers' theological convictions is complemented by profound reflection and a deep affection for both the American tradition and religious belief. The noun "affection" is consciously chosen because one suspects that part of the reason Wills recognizes our historical tension between head and heart so readily -- and finds it so fruitful -- is that he has rehearsed it in his inner life. It will come as no surprise, therefore, that the author's distaste for the current state of affairs not withstanding, his conclusion is optimistic.

http://www.latimes.com/features/books/la-et-rutten10oct10,0,3157373.story?coll=la-books-headlines
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Oct, 2007 07:58 am
xingu wrote:


Yes, it is interesting how intolerant the members of the 'tolerant' left are of anything , (especially Christianity), that rubs them the wrong way.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Oct, 2007 08:12 am
Ya, when conservative Christians stick their religion in other peoples faces it does tend to piss them off.

Religion is a private manner. Keep it in your home.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Oct, 2007 08:24 am
Is atheism a private matter?

Or is it just religious folks that are to be denied free speech by 'tolerant' folks like you, xingu?

Why don't you practice what you preach to others?
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Oct, 2007 09:18 am
real life wrote:
Is atheism a private matter?

Or is it just religious folks that are to be denied free speech by 'tolerant' folks like you, xingu?

Why don't you practice what you preach to others?

Everything in this post is a lie or intentionally decietful.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Oct, 2007 04:11 pm
Diest TKO wrote:
real life wrote:
Is atheism a private matter?

Or is it just religious folks that are to be denied free speech by 'tolerant' folks like you, xingu?

Why don't you practice what you preach to others?

Everything in this post is a lie or intentionally decietful.

T
K
O


In what possible way?
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Oct, 2007 05:52 pm
A majority of Americans has always called this "the land of the free." If we are truly free, we ought to be let to choose our own religions or non-religions. In short; we should not be Christian or necessarily anti-Christian, except by personal choice. I fail to see what others gain by cramming it down someone's throat.
0 Replies
 
Bartikus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Oct, 2007 06:27 pm
I know what you mean ed.

Atheism can indeed be a very hard pill to swallow......for some.
0 Replies
 
anton bonnier
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Oct, 2007 12:49 am
Do you ever wonder why atheism is not taught in schools and there are no atheism churches yet there are plenty of atheist out there Twisted Evil
0 Replies
 
 

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