Gay Clergy-About time or moral oxymoron?

truth
And if Jesus had been married, could it be possible that the Last Supper was really his bachelor party?
Jay Leno, the other night said that Mary Magdalen might have complained to her husband, Jesus, "You can turn water into wine, walk on water, raise the dead, cure lepers, but you can't take out the garbage?"

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Hi, There was a number of good posts and I'm sorry to be so late in joining. I don't want to be rude to anyone but rather to be logical. Taking in as much learning that I can about homosexuality.

There is a natural part of man that he is born into. There is no scientific evidence to prove that Homosexuality ( when defined includes women also) is an ingrained, inborn position. That does not mean it is not ingrained or inborn. It appeas to me that there is natural evidence that some are born homosexual. ( Kids from their earliest childhood have only experienced attraction to the same sex) But there is natural evidence to show that homosexuality is learned. ( someone raped or molested is prone to homosexuality) If it is factor or genetically determined simply does not mean it is wrong or right. Most everyone born has a defect in one way or another. For a higher spiritual need that people have it can be learned that some inborn factors are not acceptable to spirituality.

Merriam-Webster defines natural as:

5 : implanted or being as if implanted by nature : seemingly inborn
7 : having a specified character by nature
8 a : occurring in conformity with the ordinary course of nature : not marvelous or supernatural <natural causes> b : formulated by human reason alone rather than revelation
10 a : growing without human care; also : not cultivated <natural prairie unbroken by the plow> b : existing in or produced by nature : not artificial
11 a : being in a state of nature without spiritual enlightenment
12 a : having a physical or real existence as contrasted with one that is spiritual, intellectual, or fictitious. b : of, relating to, or operating in the physical as opposed to the spiritual world

The Bible states:

44 It is sown a NATURAL body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a NATURAL body, and there is a spiritual body.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is NATURAL; and afterward that which is spiritual. 1 Corinthians 15:44,46.

12 But these, as NATURAL brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption. 2 Peter 2

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie. Romans 1:24

#46 above points out that first we are natural but then the spiritual.

1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not INHERIT the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate,nor abusers of themselves with mankind. 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall INHERIT the kingdom of God.

Strongs Expanded Dictionary of Bible Words

describes what effeminate is: from the greek translation into english.
not simply of a male who practices forms of lewdness, but persons in general who are guilty of addiction to sins of the flesh, voluptuous

This condemnation covers people who are drug and alcohol addicted. The way to overcome these is difficult for all. But homosexuality and drunkenness and all addictions need to be overcome because these are not spiritual qualities and have no place in the Kingdom of God.

People who are alcoholics, gamblers, drug addicts etc., go to a 12 step program in order to stop killing themselves with these addictions. The 12 step programs are leading to a higher spirituality. One of the 12 steps is to accept a higher power other than yourself.
I would like my post to show that there is homosexuality which is a sin along with others that have to be overcome in order to become more spiritual and therefore one who can inherit the Kingdom of God.

Finally I would simply add that God is a Judge of the Heart. Whether you are in sin, as we all are, he can see who is searching for him and who is simply lost or who is simply an enemy of spirituality.

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truth
Ruach. I'm speechless.

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I was wondering when someone with more pulled together anwering ability might show up. I was speechless too.

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How come this poll is not working? Because it's not, here's my vote:A clearly unacceptable challenge to the natural order. I also like to ad how can a Hedral Sexual see a Homosexual as a Spiritual Leader? Question

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Easy, they try to overcome their ignorance.

For example, they could take note of the fact that they can't demonstrate that homosexuallity is "un-natural".

Then they could take note of the fact that even if they could they'd merely be contructing a naturalistic fallacy.

Now I won't hold my breath for them to divest themselves of their ignorance and stupidity, it's deeply rooted. But I can at least help illustrate the sheer absurdity of the naturalistic fallacy argument they tout.

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I totally agree with Ruach's post, but could never have done such a good job....

I'm not speechless (just saw this thread), but what I will say is that, for homosexual clergy who profess to believe in what the Bible says, and for whom I would hope God is the head of their lives, the very same Bible they teach and preach from, specifically speaks against homosexuality:

Leviticus 18
22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

This is from one of the books of Law, given to Moses by God. For me, it is enough of a reason to say homosexuality, and especially in the pulpit, as totally against the Laws of God....

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Well, the same passages also say that menstrating women are unclean and that they should be outcast from society till their period is over.

It also says not to eat lobster, pork, crab....

It also says that if any child says anything disrespectful to their parents the child should be stoned, whether or not the parents want it.

But Christians just take whatever fits into their own prejudices and run with it, disregarding the many passages that explicitly forbid things that they themselves do.

If you guys are going to cite passages to support your prejudice, why not follow the ones that forbid things that you do?

Want to follow the racist ones too? How about the ones that are prejudiced against blacks, or women? Or is it just homosexuals against whom you validate your prejudice in the Bible?

It would be interesting if you guys could simply follow the law of love, if you need validation in the Bible. And note that humans can have interjected their own prejudices into the Bible.

You don't find Jesus condemning homosexuality. And his laws are supposed to replace the others.

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Oh, I forgot another good example. Slavery.

Right near the quoted passages slavery is justified. In fact the Bible has a "how to own and operate your slave" manual. Telling the owners how to mark their slaves and more.

It's incredulous that good-hearted people can recognize the backward attitudes of past men that were interjected into the Bible on topics such as slavery but cling to other prejudices.

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hmmm, while I'm not prejudiced against homosexuals, I love quite a few in fact....

In respect to what you've just said, I must say that yes, the Bible has loads of rules & regulations, nearly all of which, save the TOP 10, are just to distinguish between clean and unclean (unclean dealing with entry into the Holy of Holies, and can be remedied).

I haven't read anything speaking of clean or unclean within the laws governing sexual activity but that they are decrees set forth by the Lord for his people. As he brough the israelites OUT of egypt and to canaan, he wanted them to be different (better, if you will). He says that the people are not to behave as the egyptians nor the canaanites behaved.

But, you raise valid question Craven. I'll have to ask someone more knowledgeable than I...because homosexuality doesn't reside in the Biblical TOP 10......

be back here in a bit. don't crucify me until i return *smile*

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kjvtrue wrote:

I also like to ad how can a Hedral Sexual see a Homosexual as a Spiritual Leader?

Extremely easily.

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onyxelle wrote:

I totally agree with Ruach's post, but could never have done such a good job....

I'm not speechless (just saw this thread), but what I will say is that, for homosexual clergy who profess to believe in what the Bible says, and for whom I would hope God is the head of their lives, the very same Bible they teach and preach from, specifically speaks against homosexuality:

Leviticus 18
22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

This is from one of the books of Law, given to Moses by God. For me, it is enough of a reason to say homosexuality, and especially in the pulpit, as totally against the Laws of God....

In your next post, Onyx, you mention that you are checking with someone more knowledgable than you.

You might want to also check this. The Bible passage you quoted is not complete. The passage in its entirety reads:

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be
put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their
lives." Leviticus 20:13

That part about "...both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed..." has to be factored in also, wouldn't you say?

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the one I was quoting was completed, thats a 2nd passage that has a little more in it, i think it's maybe a verse or 2 down from the one I used. I imagine it would, but, like I said....I needa talk to someone who probably knows a bit more than me. You don't mind do you?

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"He says that the people are not to behave as the egyptians nor the canaanites behaved."

Birds do it, bees do it - even educated fleas do it - as, no doubt, did the Canaanites and the Egyptians AND the Hebrews.

As for not doing what the Egyptians did - I guess we ought not to be using clerestory windows, decorated porcelain, irrrigation..........etc etc too.

Not too sure what the Canaanites did.

Or - did god mean we should be living in tents and such?

Er - not sure how folks pick the core commandments from the non-core ones.....be a bummer if god meant it about the shell fish...

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onyxelle wrote:

the one I was quoting was completed, thats a 2nd passage that has a little more in it, i think it's maybe a verse or 2 down from the one I used. I imagine it would, but, like I said....I needa talk to someone who probably knows a bit more than me. You don't mind do you?

Nope!

You don't mind that I had my say either -- do you?

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onyxelle wrote:

hmmm, while I'm not prejudiced against homosexuals, I love quite a few in fact....

Fair enough. I personally think I have prejudices against homosexuals to some degree. I wonder if you'd consider that despite being tolerant of them in day-to-day life excluding them from other areas is still a form of pre-judgement.

Quote:

In respect to what you've just said, I must say that yes, the Bible has loads of rules & regulations, nearly all of which, save the TOP 10, are just to distinguish between clean and unclean (unclean dealing with entry into the Holy of Holies, and can be remedied).

In the past the laws in the Bible made sense. Just like in the past making it a law to wash your hands up to your elbows made sense.

People were interjecting things relevant to their time.

Washing hands as a law made more sense in a less sanitary culture.

The regulations about how to treat slaves were a reflection on the fact that slavery was normal.

Heck, there were even laws saying that you were allowed to kill someone in a revenge killing, even if they only accidentally killed your family member. There were three cities of refuge from the revenge killings and if you caught the bastard outside of those walls you were legally allowed to kill him.

Those laws reflected the times, and are not necessarily the word of God (for the purpose of the rest of this post I am assuming God exists and that the Bible contains his word).

Then there are some laws that had more to do with the tribal culture from which they sprung.

There were racist laws and regulations that relected the tribal racism of the times.

What I contend is that even if you believe the Bible is God's word, you shouldn't exclude the possibility that the intolerance therein is not God's law.

Edited to add "not".

Jesus's words are far more tolerant and defensible. In fact I have deep respect for him as a philosopher. You won't find him espousing such things.

The "law of love" is an astounding motto. And discrimination against homosexuals does not stand up to this criteria.

Quote:

But, you raise valid question Craven. I'll have to ask someone more knowledgeable than I...because homosexuality doesn't reside in the Biblical TOP 10......

Well, I doubt that will help. You won't find anyone who knows the Bible better than I do (I spent about 10 years reading and memorizing it daily in extraordinarily odd circumstances).

There are people who disagree with me, but that's a matter of interpretation. And I caution you against accepting anyone else's interpretations.

Once you have the basic facts and texts in front of you make your own mind up.

I can show you arguments from the clergy that go both ways, but ultimately it's a judgement call of the individual's.

They need to decide whether the homosexual intolerance is the word of God, or if it is intolerance interjected by humans, as much of the other parts of the Bible are now recognized to be.

Quote:

be back here in a bit. don't crucify me until i return *smile*

I'd never do such a thing!

<hides cross>

:wink:

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truth
I really appreciate how you undermine the authority of the Bible, Craven. Even if it were not rife with internal contradictions and absurdities, by modern standards, it should, nevertheless, never function as an extra-human arbiter of contemporary issues. It has no proof value at all.
Carry on.

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onyxelle wrote:

I totally agree with Ruach's post, but could never have done such a good job....

I'm not speechless (just saw this thread), but what I will say is that, for homosexual clergy who profess to believe in what the Bible says, and for whom I would hope God is the head of their lives, the very same Bible they teach and preach from, specifically speaks against homosexuality:

Leviticus 18
22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

This is from one of the books of Law, given to Moses by God. For me, it is enough of a reason to say homosexuality, and especially in the pulpit, as totally against the Laws of God....

"I agree!"

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Thanks JL, and thanks for the edit too. I was confused for a bit.

kjvtrue,

Do you support slavery, racism and the subjugation of women as well? I ask in all sincerity, the Bible is very explicit on all of those topics.

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kjvtrue wrote:

onyxelle wrote:
I totally agree with Ruach's post, but could never have done such a good job....

I'm not speechless (just saw this thread), but what I will say is that, for homosexual clergy who profess to believe in what the Bible says, and for whom I would hope God is the head of their lives, the very same Bible they teach and preach from, specifically speaks against homosexuality:

Leviticus 18
22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

This is from one of the books of Law, given to Moses by God. For me, it is enough of a reason to say homosexuality, and especially in the pulpit, as totally against the Laws of God....

"I agree!"

As I pointed out up above, at Leviticus 20:13, the god of the Bible gets a bit more explicit to Moses. The god of the Bible tells Moses:

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be
put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their
lives."

QUESTION: Do you agree with that also???

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Gay Clergy-About time or moral oxymoron?

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