Craven - my point is that the bible has been allowed to be quietly fallible on any number of points as we have changed our views in the west about stuff, without causing any huge dramas - this one is causing a huge drama - I think it is clear that christianity has always picked and chosen which bits of the bible were god's "core laws" and which were not. Now a new "law" is, in its turn, and not as a new and amazingly different precedent, being challenged as to its "coreness" - clearly it is a core to many people - if not to god.
I understand that ordination is a big step for christians, where the priesthood, unlike Jewish Rabbis (as I understand it) have a mediating role between god and the rabble - but, what christians have REALLY not known that there have been gay priests and such for all the milennia?
Bill - yes, I understand the putative psychodynamics of the thing - the question (which is actually not relevant to this thread, so I will shut up after this - is why homosexuals and women get seen as a bad thing or to face up to in oneself, or to be, in the first place.)
Frank -- please don't hold back!
dlowan wrote:Craven - my point is that the bible has been allowed to be quietly fallible on any number of points as we have changed our views in the west about stuff, without causing any huge dramas
You mean like eating shrimp or somethin'? About not stoning your kids for mouthing off?
I get your point and of course this has a lot more than just the Bible to it. It's the homophobia.
Deb, maybe because they are seen as an "abomination"; fortunately, this is changing in todays society and there is a distance that occurs every time some new positive development occurs.
For instance, "Thou shalt not kill" seems to have caused nary a doctrinal ripple in its demise - for Jews, or Christans, does it?
Women are so not seen as an abomination. For a real funny reason why not to ordain women see maliagar's argument on that.
Hmm...my spidery thoughts lean towards the Catholic Church's current war on gay marriage and homosexuality being more than just about dogma....
But women are seen as property, as recently as a few years ago by the Southern Baptist convention to take women out of their clergy!
For what my little atheist opinion is worth, the clergy needs to represent the values of the church. I'm even tempted to say this is what they are there for. Now, this particular church needs to decide just what its values are.
at least its all intertaining
As an outsider (not catholic, not gay) I can only see that ostrasizing gay catholics can only hurt all catholics.
By "ostrasizing" anybody for any reason because they are different only hurts humankind!
Thanks littlek
I don't think we ever really emerged from the Dark Ages. Some of us have but others cling to being in that dark, foggy world thinking all along that they have clarity of mind and spirit. They are doomed to live in their world of worshiping something that is amorphous and they actually like it that way. It makes them feel secure and they can blame the randomness of life on...on what?
The Bunny wrote: ... the question (which is actually not relevant to this thread, so I will shut up after this - is why homosexuals and women get seen as a bad thing or to face up to in oneself, or to be, in the first place.)
Gee, I dunno, deb ... seems to me you're observatrion is perfectly relevant. I am with those who see the homophobia ... whether one is or is not a homophobe, it is a mindset of nearly instinctual depth with plenty of folks. As a prejudice, it is as pernicious as any other bigotry, and just as easy to appeal to as any other bigotry, in fact I think it among the worst of bigotries, perhaps, as it grows and strengthens as it feeds on itself. The club-wielding, drunken redneck bible thumpers are WHY there are gay and lesbian charicature behaviors committed by those most disadvantaged by the arch stereotypes they reinforce ... and vice versa. This is one of those things more folks have feelings on, as opposed to thoughts on. I think thats the chief part of The Problem.
I have been scared to ask my mother-in-law what she thinks about this, but am soo curious. She is Very Catholic, thinks the Pope is a great great man, and that he is by definition infallible. Her niece, E.G.'s cousin, came out a few years back and has since adopted a baby with her partner. I was there when my MIL learned the news that niece was lesbian, and it made an indelible impression on me. She was just HORRIFIED. Physically repulsed. Saddened. Crying. I come from a background where I knew that in theory people had such strong feelings about homosexuality but it was all theory to me. I hadn't observed it in otherwise normal, caring people before.
At any rate, she did come around, slowly, and I am just really wondering what she thinks about what the Pope is saying about her niece and grandnephew.
(I know she still hasn't let go of some basic repulsion -- we were reading a family history at the family gathering in Iowa recently, and as some of us younger folks were reading about this firebrand ancestor who never married, never had kids, wore pants all the time, and was pictured hugging her "good friend", and some of us said, "uhhh, don't think she was a lesbian or anything?" and MIL rounded on us with an absolutely disgusted look and chastised us for suggesting such a thing. Sigh.)
It amazes me that the pope has come out against allowing homosexuals to become priests, after the church's historic position of moving child molesters (not the same thing as gays) to another parish instead of having them convicted of that abominable crime. Infalliblity, inshmallibility.
Timber wrote:
"The club-wielding, drunken redneck bible thumpers are WHY there are gay and lesbian charicature behaviors committed by those most disadvantaged by the arch stereotypes they reinforce ... and vice versa."
True, the club-wielding rednecks are more likely to do bodily harm to homosexuals, but there are plenty of sophisticated business types who have no compunctions about stalling a career or preventing a qualified person from being hired because of sexual orientation. There is a pervasive bias against gays throughout society.
Another problem with church sanctioned prejudice is the spread of superstitious rumors, especially the one that gays are child molesters. This is one of the most harmful misconceptions concerning gays.
Here in Connecticut, the Boy Scouts arbitrarily fired a man when they were told he was gay. He had been a respected scout leader for years until that 'label' was attached to him, suddenly making him unacceptable. I happen to know the man who was fired by the Scouts--he is as moral and caring as anyone I've ever met.
The 'church' has ruined so many lives by its officious rulings. I wonder when it will look to itself to provide true loving acceptance to any qualified person who seeks to make a commitment to a position of leadership?
