GE Logix 255/760 On Demand 48000 grain Water Softener

Gary Slusser wrote:

The 255 is the revised version, in the early '90s, of the 1970+/- 155. It is old technology with a Logix or other timer on it.

You say "old technology" as if it was a bad thing.

Pushrod OHV small block Chevy V8s are REALLY old technology that stand tall 50+ years after they were introduced.

Simpson 260 analog dial VOMs still sit on high tech workbenches all over the world long after Fluke DVMs sent us all down the digital display road.

Technology that works, works... old or new. Proven service in the field over time is the measure of competence and Fleck and Autotrol have decades and decades of proven service in the field while the Clack does not.

I wish I had a nickel for everytime someone said "they don't make 'em like they used to... BUT I've never heard anyone say 'I can't wait till they make 'em like they might'.

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I called him back tonight as I stated I would - however, got his vm, so left a vm to call me back. I spoke with my mom last night and after thinking myself, I have decided it would be best to have him take it out and not get it. There is something in my gut telling me that I shouldn't and it just won't leave so I feel like I have to give some credence to the feeling.

It fits my style, too, to research things out and pick the best that I can afford at that time. I didn't research this out prior to the knock at the door. I am not one to buy stuff from door-to-door salesmen, but this time I gave it a try since it was a 30 day no strings attached trial.

I will now take the advice from you guys and go search out what to buy. In my thinking last night, I was like - if I am not here more than 5 years, then maybe I will just get a Home Depot kind - at least I could put it on my HD credit card and pay no interest for 6 months. I know they may not be a system you guys would choose but you are probably choosing the best of the best right? If they were as horrible as you make them sound, would they still be selling them? I would think if there were a ton of issues, they would discontinue? Just talking/thinking outloud is all. Plus, I am still not sure I will even go that route. I just don't think I can get a decent system and installed for less than $800-1000. Is a softener better than no softener? An excellent softener is better than a good softener, right?

Anyway, I sure appreciate the input on this thread! I just hope I can find the best middle of the line softener and I can get something middle of the line in my price range. I hope that I don't regret having him pull this out at $1300, but it just seems high for what I am getting per what I have heard you guys say.

Still a bit confused, but at least I have made up my mind to have him take this unit out.

Thanks again.

JIM

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idahoadventurer wrote:

if I am not here more than 5 years, then maybe I will just get a Home Depot kind - at least I could put it on my HD credit card and pay no interest for 6 months. I know they may not be a system you guys would choose but you are probably choosing the best of the best right? If they were as horrible as you make them sound, would they still be selling them?

Jim,

With hard water any softener that will bring you to ZERO hardness is better than no softener at all.

I'd prefer a Sears softener to the one at HD. Sears' field techs know how to fix them and parts are available. There's even a nifty online troubleshooting animation at http://www.kenmorewater.com/website/animations/product-animation/ts_index.html

It will definitely soften your water but it will not soften your water indefinitely :wink:

There are also "0" financing deals if you get a Sears credit card. Wait till the softeners are on sale and then go in and get a Sears card.

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Good decision. Do your research on both the big box store brands and a softener with a Clack WS-1 control valve.

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I have been looking around a little bit tonight for places in Boise that I can go to... and found this place... http://www.waterworldwarehouse.com/water-treatments-systems.php

Does this place look like a place that you guys would feel comfortable with? It appears they are using only Fleck and Clack valves... I don't fully understand how they sell them - maybe they assemble how you want? I dunno - I found their three different "families" of products kind of confusing.

Anyway.. I hope the link works... just wondering if this is the sort of direction that you would recommend.

Thanks again!

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I'm sure you will not like their prices.

Their web site is setting out to baffle folks that go there. They do that by mentioning valve names but then don't tell you what valves they are. They separate their softeners into three categories and then call them cutzie names as if there is a difference in quality but, the only difference I can find is a different control valve.

I think you need to expand the horizon of your research.

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idahoadventurer wrote:

I have been looking around a little bit tonight for places in Boise that I can go to... and found this place... http://www.waterworldwarehouse.com/water-treatments-systems.php

Does this place look like a place that you guys would feel comfortable with? It appears they are using only Fleck and Clack valves... I don't fully understand how they sell them - maybe they assemble how you want? I dunno - I found their three different "families" of products kind of confusing.

Anyway.. I hope the link works... just wondering if this is the sort of direction that you would recommend.

Thanks again!

Jim,

Looks like an online seller with a real brick & mortar location that assembles industry standard softeners at different price points and a parts and labor warranty if desired and they are in your area.

Depending on their pricing they might be the best of all worlds... low cost for an industry standard softener, onsite install and service, they seem to stock parts and service what they sell.

Since you're having laundry problems get them to come out and do a water test and quote you a treatment solution... shouldn't cost you anything.

The more information you have the more informed a choice you can make.

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Autotrol Softener
My son bought the same unit from these guys and was very pleased. I believe they have the same exact system you are looking at.

www.discountwatersofteners.com

I hope this helps,
Andy

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justalurker wrote:

Gary Slusser wrote:
The 255 is the revised version, in the early '90s, of the 1970+/- 155. It is old technology with a Logix or other timer on it.

You say "old technology" as if it was a bad thing.

Technology that works, works... old or new. Proven service in the field over time is the measure of competence and Fleck and Autotrol have decades and decades of proven service in the field while the Clack does not.

Yes Fleck has been around since 1953. In 1998 or '99 the two senior engineers there, with 28 and 22 years, left and took an assistant engineer of 18 years with them to go to Clack Corp.

Clack has been manufacturing many parts and pieces for the water treatment industry since 1946.... that's longer than Fleck.

Clack is still a family owned corporation while Fleck is owned by a holding company since about the mid to late 1990s... BTW, I was notified on Wednesday that they announced another 7% price increase.

Then those three engineers copy the Fleck piston seal and spacer design and tremendously improve on it and other features of control valves and their manufacturing and then come out with the Clack line of control valves.

And yet here we have you saying that the longevity of the design doesn't count when it is in a Clack valve designed by ex-Fleck engineers with roughly 70 years with Fleck before leaving there..... LOL

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I would be impressed if Clack produced something original and innovative instead of a cheap copy of the original.

As I have stated: Clack valves are readily available to me, but I refuse to sell them.

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Gary Slusser wrote:

And yet here we have you saying that the longevity of the design doesn't count when it is in a Clack valve designed by ex-Fleck engineers with roughly 70 years with Fleck before leaving there..... LOL

Oh, I get it... you're saying "the same but different".

Moe, Larry, and Curly design a Fleck control valve and it goes into service. This control valve proves itself with reliable field service for 30 or 40 years. It becomes the defacto industry standard and outsells all other control valves combined.

Moe, Larry, and Curly leave Fleck and go to work for Clack, a company that had never designed, produced, or sold a control valve, and they copy the Fleck design. Of course there are patent restrictions so they make major changes to the Fleck design and call it a Clack Idea

So, the design is different and there is not one single interchangable part yet YOU bestow the proven field performance that the Fleck control valve has EARNED on the Clack Question

Applying your logic(?), a man and a woman (who is a doctor), get married. After 10 years they get a divorce. The man remarries and has a child. The child is awarded a medical degree at birth because the father's ex-wife had a medical degree. Shocked

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justalurker wrote:

Of course there are patent restrictions so they make major changes to the Fleck design and call it a Clack

Nope sorry, no patent, it expired long ago (recall you said decades old?). They copied the design as I've said.

justalurker wrote:

So, the design is different.

Nope, the design is identical; piston, seals and spacers with the same number of seals and spacers.

But the Clack seals are self lubricating and wiping. The piston is linear drive/screwed in and out horizontally rather than pushing and pulling the piston in/out or up/down with the wheel, bar and piston stem power train in the 2510 or the various gears and cam wheel to push/pull the piston in the 5600.

That means there's no side force on the Clack piston stem to wear the Teflon off causing the end cap o-ring to fail and leak as large numbers of Fleck valves do eventually.

Plus... the seals and spacers in the Clack, a single piece called the stack, come out by grabbing the stack with a thumb and forefinger which allows anyone to pull them ALL out at once. The seals spacers adn piston in a Clack can be replaced and the water back on in 10- 15 minutes by anyone that can look at a picture and read English.

Get the manual out and tear your Clack WS-1 apart and let me know if I'm lying.

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I'm not impressed by Clack, I'll stick with the Fleck Cool

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Gary Slusser wrote:

Nope, the design is identical; piston, seals and spacers with the same number of seals and spacers.

The Fleck's reliability is based on it's history, not supposition.

When the Clack reaches adulthood and its peachfuzz has turned into a beard and it has proven itself in the field (or as a doorstop) then it will have EARNED the respect the water treatment industry and end users bestow upon the Fleck now and have for decades.

The Clack isn't a bad valve. Mine works fine propping a shed door open. Perhaps I'll put it back in service to remind myself what I don't like about it. The Clack is as easy to disassemble and reassemble as the Fleck and I don't require special tools to do so for either one. They both soften water.

Fleck continues to sell more control valves than all other brand control valves combined WORLDWIDE. I'd venture to say (just a guess) that Fleck rejects more control valves for QC from their production line yearly than Clack sells in an entire year.

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What I know is that there are numerous national and international companies that used Fleck for decades and over the last few years have changed to Clack. I also know that more and more dealers are going to the Clack line. Recently a couple of large plumbing supply house chains have too.

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Gary Slusser wrote:

What I know is that there are numerous national and international companies that used Fleck for decades and over the last few years have changed to Clack. I also know that more and more dealers are going to the Clack line. Recently a couple of large plumbing supply house chains have too.

Not good news for the consumer, but great for the salesman.

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It is an excellent value for DIY customers.

Also for many customers of local dealers that will eventually want to repair it themselves.

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I guess there is a market for it, but the % of do it yourself customers is insignificant except when it comes to full
service H20 professionals adopting these do it yourself folks that finally realize they made a mistake and need help.

I pick up one or two orphaned do it yourself customers a month...

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Gary Slusser wrote:

What I know is that there are numerous national and international companies that used Fleck for decades and over the last few years have changed to Clack. I also know that more and more dealers are going to the Clack line. Recently a couple of large plumbing supply house chains have too.

There's nothing quite like businesses experimenting with new and unproven product (with a higher profit margin - the REAL reason for changing the product) when the customer is paying for the R&D.

Customers who are duped into becoming paying beta testers should be informed of that business' intentions BEFORE they open their wallet.

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I disagree that a product using a highly improved redesign of a previously proven original design, as you yourself say, should be considered as R & D. Especially after 7+ years of it being sold all over the world.

I've been tracking what dealers say about it since 2000 and since Dec. 2003 I've checked the internet constantly and I don't see complaints about the Clack line of control valves from dealers or owner/customers. I have not experienced complaints from my roughly 870 customers using it over the last 3.5+ years either; and that includes the one I sold you.

As to increased profits... I say you should be looking at the guys that are manufacturing and selling the original 35 year old product while not only holding up their prices, they raise them substantially every year. Just last week Fleckannounced another 7% increase to their distributors/my suppliers.

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GE Logix 255/760 On Demand 48000 grain Water Softener

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