Alberto Gonzales Resigns as Attorney General

parados wrote:

The sergaent at arms controls the capitol police which are NOT part of the executive branch.

So it will be the capitol police who go and arrest the errant senators and drag them back. That's fine.

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oralloy wrote:

parados wrote:
The sergaent at arms controls the capitol police which are NOT part of the executive branch.

So it will be the capitol police who go and arrest the errant senators and drag them back. That's fine.

I don't think the capitol police just jump up at the beck and call of a couple of Republican Senators, to drag other Senators into the chamber. I think there might actually have to be a somewhat more official process then that, don't you?

Jeez

Cycloptichorn

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oralloy wrote:

parados wrote:
You haven't pointed to any reality.

Yes I have. The reality is that Republicans could cause the Democrats a headache if they abandoned Washington with the Senate in session.

No you haven't pointed to any reality. In reality only 2 democrats would have to show up to create the quorum.

1. The GOP can't do anything that isn't on the calender of the Senate. The calender is set by the majority party.
2. The GOP can't end debate on any issue even if they are the majority in the chamber since a cloture vote to end debate requires 60 votes.
3. All votes on legislation in the Senate MUST be on the calender 24 hours before the votes occur.
4. Before Senators can be "compelled" the quorum call must go unanswered. A reasonable time must be given before they order Senators to be compelled. With Senators NOT being in the city it would require at least a 24 hour wait if not 48. The Senate could not adjourn otherwise they would have to start all over with a new quorum call.
5. If they vote to arrest any Senators not on the floor then no GOP Senator can leave the floor and it will probably take at least 24 hours to get Dems to the floor. Any GOPer that does leave the floor could be instantly arrested. The headlines would be rather ironic.
6. If the GOP wants to play the quorum game by all being in Washington then the Dems could play that game just fine. With 2 dems there, they could request quorum and the GOP would be the easiest for the Sergaent at arms to compel to appear since they are in the capitol.
6. Not only would it be a breach of ettiquette but it would make life very difficult for the minority party if they tried such a stunt. The majority can change the rules.

parados wrote:

You keep claiming they would be arrested and dragged back. There is no such provision in the rule.

Yes there is. That is what is meant by having the sergeant at arms compel them to attend.
[/quote] Yes, but the sergeant at arms is voted into his position by the Senate which means he serves at the pleasure of the majority party. He has to do his duty but he has no reason to be quick about it. He has no budget to send officers around the country. He could refuse to do such a thing until such a budget is authorized.

Quote:

parados wrote:
Yes, they could request a forum call. Yes, they could vote to compel Senators to appear. But they can't force anyone to arrest the Senators nor can they force a timeline of when they would appear.

So the sergeant at arms might just ignore his obligation to retrieve the errant senators?

[/quote]He can do it how he sees fit. He could place guards on the Senate floor to not allow any GOP senator to leave to even go to the bathroom after all he has been ordered to compel Senators to the floor. Then he can send a single officer off to round up the Democrats perhaps sending this officer to Hawaii. The primary purpose of the Senate police is security for the Senate building and with so many officers on vacation he can't send more than one. Assuming the officer can even catch a flight the first day he would then have to track down the Senator who would have advance warning and could be in California when the officer arrives in Hawaii. It could take 3 days or more before that Senator could be found. Meanwhile the Senate can't adjourn and no GOP Senator has been able to leave the floor. Nor can they vote on anything else like 'bathrooms' while the quorum call is in place.

You forget that in Texas the GOP was the majority and they played games with the rules and even told Homeland Security that the plane with the Dems had crashed as a ruse to get Federal help in tracking down the missing Dems. No such shenanigans can happen with the Federal government.

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A G's resignation
Jeffrey Rosen, a law professor at George Washington University, is a frequent contributor to the magazine. He is the author most recently of '�'The Supreme Court: The Personalities and Rivalries That Defined America.''
He had written a lengthy article(7 pages) which will be published in NYT on 9th september.
Here is a relevant quote from that artticle.

" Now Goldsmith is speaking out. In a new book, "The Terror Presidency," which will be published later this month, and in a series of conversations I had with him this summer, Goldsmith has recounted how, from his first weeks on the job, he fought vigorously against an expansive view of executive power championed by officials in the White House, including Alberto Gonzales, who was then the White House counsel and who recently resigned as attorney general, and David Addington, who was then Vice President Cheney's legal adviser and is now his chief of staff. Goldsmith says he is not speaking out for the money; though he received a low six-figure advance for the book, he is, after deducting some minor expenses, donating the advance and any profits to charity. Nor is he speaking out because he disagrees with the basic goals of the Bush administration in the war on terror. "I shared, and I still share, a lot of their concerns about what we have to do to meet the terrorist threat," he told me. When I asked whether he thought Gonzales should have resigned and whether Addington should follow, he demurred. "I was friends with Gonzales and feel very sorry for him," he said. "We got along really well. I admired and respected Addington, even when I thought his judgment was crazy. They thought they were doing the right thing."
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/09/magazine/09rosen.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

oralloy wrote:
parados wrote:
The sergaent at arms controls the capitol police which are NOT part of the executive branch.

So it will be the capitol police who go and arrest the errant senators and drag them back. That's fine.

I don't think the capitol police just jump up at the beck and call of a couple of Republican Senators, to drag other Senators into the chamber. I think there might actually have to be a somewhat more official process then that, don't you?

I never said it wasn't an official process.

But it is an official process that the Republicans could initiate if they were in a majority of those senators who were present to vote.

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parados wrote:

oralloy wrote:
parados wrote:
You haven't pointed to any reality.

Yes I have. The reality is that Republicans could cause the Democrats a headache if they abandoned Washington with the Senate in session.

No you haven't pointed to any reality.

Yes I have. The reality is that if the Democrats try to block Bush's ability to make a recess appointment they'll have to stick around Washington for the next year and a half (excepting 3 day vacations). Otherwise the Republicans will be able to make mischief.

parados wrote:

In reality only 2 democrats would have to show up to create the quorum.

If there are 49 Republicans present.

If the Republicans were trying to have Democrats arrested and dragged back to DC, some Republicans might take it upon themselves to hide to increase the number of Democrats hassled.

parados wrote:

1. The GOP can't do anything that isn't on the calender of the Senate. The calender is set by the majority party.

I can think of a few things Republicans could do. The most interesting of them is having Democrats arrested and dragged back to Washington.

parados wrote:

2. The GOP can't end debate on any issue even if they are the majority in the chamber since a cloture vote to end debate requires 60 votes.
3. All votes on legislation in the Senate MUST be on the calender 24 hours before the votes occur.

Legislation isn't the point (at least so long as Pelosi is Speaker). Making mischief is the point.

parados wrote:

4. Before Senators can be "compelled" the quorum call must go unanswered. A reasonable time must be given before they order Senators to be compelled. With Senators NOT being in the city it would require at least a 24 hour wait if not 48. The Senate could not adjourn otherwise they would have to start all over with a new quorum call.
5. If they vote to arrest any Senators not on the floor then no GOP Senator can leave the floor and it will probably take at least 24 hours to get Dems to the floor. Any GOPer that does leave the floor could be instantly arrested. The headlines would be rather ironic.

I'm sure that if the Republicans went that route, the Republicans who stayed at the capitol would be prepared to do what was necessary.

parados wrote:

6. Not only would it be a breach of ettiquette but it would make life very difficult for the minority party if they tried such a stunt. The majority can change the rules.

No more a breach of etiquette than the notion of keeping the Senate in session during vacation to deny the President the ability to make a recess appointment.

If the Democrats do it first, don't be surprised when the Republican respond in kind.

parados wrote:

oralloy wrote:
parados wrote:
You keep claiming they would be arrested and dragged back. There is no such provision in the rule.

Yes there is. That is what is meant by having the sergeant at arms compel them to attend.

Yes, but the sergeant at arms is voted into his position by the Senate which means he serves at the pleasure of the majority party. He has to do his duty but he has no reason to be quick about it. He has no budget to send officers around the country. He could refuse to do such a thing until such a budget is authorized.

oralloy wrote:
parados wrote:
Yes, they could request a forum call. Yes, they could vote to compel Senators to appear. But they can't force anyone to arrest the Senators nor can they force a timeline of when they would appear.

So the sergeant at arms might just ignore his obligation to retrieve the errant senators?

He can do it how he sees fit. He could place guards on the Senate floor to not allow any GOP senator to leave to even go to the bathroom after all he has been ordered to compel Senators to the floor. Then he can send a single officer off to round up the Democrats perhaps sending this officer to Hawaii. The primary purpose of the Senate police is security for the Senate building and with so many officers on vacation he can't send more than one. Assuming the officer can even catch a flight the first day he would then have to track down the Senator who would have advance warning and could be in California when the officer arrives in Hawaii. It could take 3 days or more before that Senator could be found. Meanwhile the Senate can't adjourn and no GOP Senator has been able to leave the floor. Nor can they vote on anything else like 'bathrooms' while the quorum call is in place.

While I don't expect the sergeant at arms to do his duty in a way that is particularly odious to the Democrats, I also doubt he would do so in a way that was odious to the Republicans.

parados wrote:

You forget that in Texas the GOP was the majority and they played games with the rules and even told Homeland Security that the plane with the Dems had crashed as a ruse to get Federal help in tracking down the missing Dems. No such shenanigans can happen with the Federal government.

I'm sure that someone in the White House might be willing to give orders to have the executive branch help the capitol police pin down the location of errant Democrats.

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oralloy wrote:

parados wrote:
oralloy wrote:
parados wrote:
You haven't pointed to any reality.

Yes I have. The reality is that Republicans could cause the Democrats a headache if they abandoned Washington with the Senate in session.

No you haven't pointed to any reality.

Yes I have. The reality is that if the Democrats try to block Bush's ability to make a recess appointment they'll have to stick around Washington for the next year and a half (excepting 3 day vacations). Otherwise the Republicans will be able to make mischief.

You seem to miss out on why the GOP couldn't do a quorum call and make it work.
1. They couldn't adjourn.
2. They couldn't leave the floor if they vote to compel Senators be brought to the floor.
3. They can't make planes fly faster. The capitol police would have to leave DC, fly somewhere, track down the Senator, put him on a plane and fly him back. Meanwhile the GOP can't leave the floor that entire time or they will violate the order to arrest anyone not on the floor.

Quote:

parados wrote:
In reality only 2 democrats would have to show up to create the quorum.

If there are 49 Republicans present.

If the Republicans were trying to have Democrats arrested and dragged back to DC, some Republicans might take it upon themselves to hide to increase the number of Democrats hassled.

Wouldn't even have a chance of working and it would embarrass the GOP. They would be the one's hiding while the Dems would just be out of town. The press would have a field day tracking down and pointing out where those GOP Senators were hiding. The pundits would wonder why those particular GOP weren't party to the quorum call. The media would ask the questions of the hiding Senators. It would be brought up in their next election cycle. Which Senator would possible volunteer to hide?

The GOP can ask the Sergaent at arms to compel Senators. They can't ask him to only compel those of the other party. Nor can they compel him to only find certain Senators. The Sergaent at arms, who holds office by the vote of the majority party, can do the job however he sees fit. Once they ask him to compel anyone not on the floor he by rights must compel ANY Senator not on the floor. Any GOP senator leaving the floor during the quorum call MUST be compeled to return or he is being unfair.

It would be a debacle for the GOP. They would be the laughingstock of the country. Unable to get any Dems arrested and unable to leave the floor to go to the bathroom without being arrested themselves.

Quote:

parados wrote:
1. The GOP can't do anything that isn't on the calender of the Senate. The calender is set by the majority party.

I can think of a few things Republicans could do. The most interesting of them is having Democrats arrested and dragged back to Washington.

You keep repeating that but haven't addressed how the GOP senators will stay on the floor for 48 hours, unable to conduct any other votes and unable to leave to even go to the bathroom.

Quote:

parados wrote:
2. The GOP can't end debate on any issue even if they are the majority in the chamber since a cloture vote to end debate requires 60 votes.
3. All votes on legislation in the Senate MUST be on the calender 24 hours before the votes occur.

Legislation isn't the point (at least so long as Pelosi is Speaker). Making mischief is the point.

Pelosi isn't in the Senate. Rolling Eyes

Quote:

parados wrote:
4. Before Senators can be "compelled" the quorum call must go unanswered. A reasonable time must be given before they order Senators to be compelled. With Senators NOT being in the city it would require at least a 24 hour wait if not 48. The Senate could not adjourn otherwise they would have to start all over with a new quorum call.
5. If they vote to arrest any Senators not on the floor then no GOP Senator can leave the floor and it will probably take at least 24 hours to get Dems to the floor. Any GOPer that does leave the floor could be instantly arrested. The headlines would be rather ironic.

I'm sure that if the Republicans went that route, the Republicans who stayed at the capitol would be prepared to do what was necessary.

How do you propose they would do it? They won't be able to vote on bringing porta potties on the Senate floor because it isn't on the calender.

Quote:

parados wrote:
6. Not only would it be a breach of ettiquette but it would make life very difficult for the minority party if they tried such a stunt. The majority can change the rules.

No more a breach of etiquette than the notion of keeping the Senate in session during vacation to deny the President the ability to make a recess appointment.

The constitution is not a breach of ettiquette. The Senate is not required to recess.

Quote:

If the Democrats do it first, don't be surprised when the Republican respond in kind.

The GOP would be within their rights to do it as well. But then it would require a President not willing to present his nominations to the Senate and instead attempting to circumvent the constitution. I support the constitution and would support the GOP in an attempt to prevent recess appointments if no nomination was sent to the Senate.

Quote:

While I don't expect the sergeant at arms to do his duty in a way that is particularly odious to the Democrats, I also doubt he would do so in a way that was odious to the Republicans.

He is required to compel ALL Senators as he finds them. The GOP can't direct him to only arrest DEM Senators. Why should he give the GOP special treatment and allow them to leave the floor when he is trying to bring enough for a quorum. He should bring any Senator to the floor as soon as they are found off the floor. Personally, I think it would be great fun for the country and the media as they set up cameras to watch the discomfort of the GOP.

Quote:

parados wrote:
You forget that in Texas the GOP was the majority and they played games with the rules and even told Homeland Security that the plane with the Dems had crashed as a ruse to get Federal help in tracking down the missing Dems. No such shenanigans can happen with the Federal government.

I'm sure that someone in the White House might be willing to give orders to have the executive branch help the capitol police pin down the location of errant Democrats.

And that would be a violation of the constitutional seperation of branches. But then this WH has shown they don't give a crap about the constitution.

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Of course the GOP could request that each GOP Senator is accompanied to the bathroom by a police officer while the quorum call is going on.

Late night TV would love it.

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Or, more likely, the sergeant at arms will tell the GOP to piss off; they don't take marching orders from the minority party.

Cycloptichorn

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USA devoid of civilization
"America s the only nation in history
which miraculously has gone directly from
barbarism to degenration without the usual
interval of CIVILIZATION: Georges Cleme....

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Or, more likely, the sergeant at arms will tell the GOP to piss off; they don't take marching orders from the minority party.

Cycloptichorn

The rule is that if the majority of senators on the floor vote to compel to bring Senators to the floor for a quorum call then he should do it. The sergeant at arms is the man that is responsible for enforcing the rules. He doesn't have to do anything that is outside the rules and he can enforce them as he sees them to be.

Since he has been ordered to bring Senators to the floor that would mean he can enforce that no Senator can leave the floor. The GOP can end the quorum call by adjourning but otherwise they have put themselves in the position that they can't leave until a quorum is in place.

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oralloy wrote:

parados wrote:
Let us know when Bush even bothers to nominate anyone.

Sure. If I'm online when it happens and it hasn't been mentioned by someone else.

Here you go:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/attorney_general

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/bush_gonzales_dc

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Confirmation of Attorney general
Mukasey, by all appearances, will be a huge improvement over Gonzales, and as such will probably not run into a firestorm of criticism at his confirmation hearings. However, Alberto Gonzales was so bad, that his successor will have quite a mess to clean up.

Senators voting on whether or not to confirm Mukasey should ask him whether he will:

Appoint an independent counsel to investigate the US Attorneys scandal
Call for the closure of Guantanamo and the end of coercive interrogation techniques
Present a report to congress no later than March 1, 2008 on White House interference in Justice Department matters
Resign from the Giuliani political campaign and ask his son to do the same.

Bar political influence at the Justice Department

Prohibit White House contact with US Attorneys

End the phony and politically motivated voter fraud investigations (the basis of the firing of US Attorneys).

Enforce voting rights provisions of the Motor Voter bill, including registration of disenfranchised groups through public agencies including the DMV and welfare agencies

Call for the reinstatement of Habeas Corpus

Restore public trust and dignity to the office of U.S. Attorney General
http://www.workingassetsblog.com/

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parados wrote:

oralloy wrote:
parados wrote:
2. The GOP can't end debate on any issue even if they are the majority in the chamber since a cloture vote to end debate requires 60 votes.
3. All votes on legislation in the Senate MUST be on the calender 24 hours before the votes occur.

Legislation isn't the point (at least so long as Pelosi is Speaker). Making mischief is the point.
Pelosi isn't in the Senate.

You seriously don't comprehend why there is no point in GOP senators trying to pass partisan legislation so long as Pelosi is speaker???

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Or, more likely, the sergeant at arms will tell the GOP to piss off; they don't take marching orders from the minority party.

Cycloptichorn

Not likely that the police will refuse to follow the law. I wouldn't put it past the Democratic senators to want the police to ignore the law. But I don't see the police actually doing so.

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Well Oralloy, the Dems did it - held Pro Forma sessions all break and blocked Bush from making recess appointments. The Republicans didn't do sh*t about it, b/c they couldn't, as your arguments never had any real basis in what we call 'reality.' Prepared to say that you were wrong yet?

Cycloptichorn

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Well Oralloy, the Dems did it - held Pro Forma sessions all break and blocked Bush from making recess appointments. The Republicans didn't do sh*t about it, b/c they couldn't, as your arguments never had any real basis in what we call 'reality.' Prepared to say that you were wrong yet?

Cycloptichorn

With the pro forma sessions and Congress technically not out, I wonder how Bush was able to make a "pocket veto". This could be an interesting legal and political debate in the coming month.

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parados wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Well Oralloy, the Dems did it - held Pro Forma sessions all break and blocked Bush from making recess appointments. The Republicans didn't do sh*t about it, b/c they couldn't, as your arguments never had any real basis in what we call 'reality.' Prepared to say that you were wrong yet?

Cycloptichorn

With the pro forma sessions and Congress technically not out, I wonder how Bush was able to make a "pocket veto". This could be an interesting legal and political debate in the coming month.

Link?

Cycloptichorn

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pocket veto + link

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thnks. My guess is that the nature of the veto caused nobody to complain about it; therefore, Bush could do it.

Cycloptichorn

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Alberto Gonzales Resigns as Attorney General

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